Quote: tommy devito

Having a titled parent leads to more $ for the puppies when you sell them Steve. And like was stated, a lot of guess work is already taken care of in this scenario (titled, examined, temperament)

I think Steve was wondering why Jenni didn't want to do the titling and temperament testing herself, not why she bought a titled adult . Taking someone's word for it isn't always the same as seeing for yourself, and for someone as precise as Jenni, sometimes the best way to know what you're dealing with is to do all the work yourself, so the question made sense to me.

That said, the fact that she was working with anyone at ALL to help find this dog makes me believe this individual is pretty darn trustworthy (and very experienced at what they do), so I'm guessing that it won't make a huge amount of difference that Jenni wasn't the handler that worked this dog toward her current titles - through whatever arduous research, it sounds like Jenni has found a dog she really likes, so congrats!

Steve, I completely understand all your questions and would tend to think that most people who were serious about starting breeding programs for sport or working dogs would want to get very intimate with their stock (as in training/testing/trialing), before it became actual BREEDING stock. However, Jenni certainly isn't "most people", and the tack she's taking will no doubt have just as much possibility for great results as any other well considered breeding, she's just coming at it from a little different angle. And if the results AREN'T great, I think we can trust her not to keep breeding, just because she has a titled bitch...

Your devotion to this breed is inspiring, Jenni - I hope everything you've been searching for in this import results in some truly stellar pups!

~Natalya

Wow, Natalya. I'm flattered. Thank you so much for your comments.

You are correct; I have absolute faith in Steve and his friends who picked Capri for me. He is as picky as I am, and they have always impressed him with their selections for him when he didn't get to meet them in person first. They have worked closely together since their days in Sch in the 60's, 70's, and 80's, and know very well what proper temperament is and are as dedicated to preserving it as anyone I've met.

More than anything else, this spoke volumes to me about how trustworthy these people are: I asked Steve a while ago to look for a female for me, temperament being most important. I didn't specify color, size, age, or anything else. Only temperament. It took all this time before a female was located. How easy would it have been with so few parameters to say a dog would work and send me the first one they found? How many breeders would have had ten on hand that would suit me just fine? Above all else, this reinforced my decision.

Maybe I based my questions on wrong criteria. For the record I think having an experienced mentor is very important. The only reason I brought anything up was for the most part the only thing discussed online as far as starting breeding is the usual I have a pretty dog and I want to breed stuff that gets blasted.

I thought it was a good opportunity to discuss it with someone who is responsible and has a plan. You've been training and have placed dogs previously right? So why not a young female with the right potential that you train and title or certify, whichever applies? As a breeder aren't you selling yourself and your knowledge? Maybe it's just the way I read it at first but I focused on starting a breeding program with someone elses finished product and not really knowing about the female or how she handled the ups and downs in training. You answered what I was thinking with the placement and keeping a couple of the pups.

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I don't believe the dog themselves is all you need to know for breeding decisions.

Not all, but arent the sire and dam the 2 most important dogs in the pedigree? Like I said Jenni, maybe it's just in the way I read starting a breeding program, with my Rott and my puppy the most important opinions and advice I got came from the breeder's knowledge of the dogs that were bred, second was people involved with the dogs in the pedigree. For me personally I would want to be able to say Hey Jenni,how did she handle tracking in the beginning? How was she on different fields? Any questions like that.
This seems pretty argumentative. Sorry. Maybe I shouldnt have said anything other then congrats.

 Quote: Tommy DeVito

Having a titled parent leads to more $ for the puppies when you sell them Steve. And like was stated, a lot of guess work is already taken care of in this scenario (titled, examined, temperament)

This isnt about money or titles Tommy. Its about a breeding program with high goals just beginning. Its just an opportunity to hear the thoughts of a responsible, experienced person discuss it instead of the usual conversations about why you should not breed.

Lucky you, Steve, I love to argue!

Steve, if you've had a lot of GSDs, you'll know that a barely 2 year old is FAR from a "finished product"! Oh, Lordy...Caleb turned 5 on Friday and I am getting close to where I'd call him a finished product...but not quite.

As far as knowledge, who is born knowing? How could I know any of these things for absolute, firsthand, until I have a few generations? Everyone starts somewhere, and I have spent the last 7 (roughly) years trying to absorb all I can knowledge-wise so I make as few mistakes as possible. I will make mistakes. Everyone does. I will take as much trusted help as I can get to avoid catastrophic mistakes that dogs could suffer for, though.

I don't do Sch w/my dogs, so I probably won't title her further, but who knows? I do lots of other things, so I will have no problem answering tracking questions, for example. Sch tracking is of course different than S&R tracking, and I am trying to gear my program more toward versatility, which is why I'm paying a bit more to get a female with a long line of police AND sport dogs in her blood.

I have placed dogs. With both civilians and LEOs...not all working the street, some as pets, but at least those guys know how to handle them as pets. For the record, every dog I have ever placed, puppies included, is still where I placed them, which I am immensely proud of, as I don't take placing a dog lightly, and made a lot of people very angry when I refused to sell them the dog or puppy they wanted. I'm sure I will continue to anger people. If I don't, I'm doing something wrong!

Even that jerk Stark is still where I put him, lol.

To answer your "why not a young female w/the right potential" I'll say this; the kind of dog I want is getting harder and harder to find. I am going to breed for selfish reasons-to preserve the kind of dog I want to own. 7 years ago when I started looking for a dog, there were several that I found suitable. When I looked for Qira, I noticed fewer that I wanted to own. Poor breeding for the wrong things is making it harder and harder to find what I want in a dog, and while I could probably find one in this country if I looked hard enough, you guys all know I tend to go overboard! I would rather chance a dog that someone I trust has worked on a longterm basis, and had the privilege of owning the sire and working many dogs in the ped.

Anyway, I am not remotely offended by your questions, so sorry if you're disappointed! LOL.

How did you get to the point where you have placed dogs working the street? What did you put into the dog to make him or her desirable for that? What I mean is what made a Dept. want that dog from you?

Through friends, I got in contact w/the TD for a nearby county. He's the first person who started working w/Caleb when he was about 15mos. From there, I started hanging around w/them, helping them w/tracking, etc. They were tired of going from kennel to kennel looking for dogs that weren't "kennel wasted" as they called it. They were on a budget, and couldn't afford their usual supplier of trained dogs, so they decided to go w/well-bred, suitably raised green dogs.

Another situation arose from work. I worked w/a guy on the SWAT team and who had been a military police officer. He wasn't looking for a dog for the street, but for a good pet for their home, but had been spoiled by the kind of dog he used to work with. He knew my dogs b/c they were always under my desk, lol, and when I mentioned Xander's litter to him, he said he wanted one. I picked his puppy for him, too. He said he trusted me. Go figure! LOL. He then referred me to friends of his in SAR and a few others on the force who just had a higher than average standard of what they wanted in a GSD. Xander's litter went to 3 LEOs, an I can't remember what in the military, and then I kept Xander of course, and I gave the female hellion of the bunch to my aunt to keep her close by b/c I knew she would need some attitude adjustments along her adolescence.

As far as what I put into the dog, that's a hard question to answer, and I guess IMO, it's more a question of what I DIDN'T do than what I did. Make any sense? I didn't say they were working the street; many were too young and it's unknown if they will or won't make it as a PSD. I think they probably could've if they're anything like Xander. I was offered $4k recently for Xander as a detection dog...I guess I can't part with him! I think I just tend to like the kind of dogs that make better PSDs than sport dogs and for some reason, people trust my opinion on temperament.

I have a good friend who often has "green" dogs that he places at around 18mos and often times, I have them living w/me at the time, and I'm always the one who sells them. I'm picky, and I guess people trust me because of that. I dunno what else to tell you.

Am I under arrest?

Under arrest,Lol. I'm just a truck driver. This wasnt the direction I meant to go though. But I guess I just don't understand why these Depts would listen to your judgement. Why would they come to someone who doesnt do anything to prove the worth of the dogs? Thats what I think of when you say breeding "Program" Someone out there hands on working and proving the dogs in verifiable venues not necessarily Schutzhund.

I have no idea why they listen to me, but they do. You're taking a HUGE part of this out of the equation-the DOGS. The dogs speak for themselves. You act like I'm selling Papillons and Pekingese to depts and it's only because I told them they were good dogs, lol.

The dogs themselves are verifiable...and those who know what they're looking at agree. I could lie, but honestly, word of mouth is how I've placed most dogs. One guy called me a year after buying the first and asked me to find him another one; he didn't even bother looking on his own. Maybe I have a knack for evaluating dogs, I dunno.

I don't seek to place dogs in depts, actually. I don't like what most depts require for health in terms of vaccinations, so I won't sell to them more often than not. I know it's not the handler's decision, but I can't in good conscience place a dog in a situation where I feel (right or wrong) that it won't be cared for in the best way possible. I would much rather place them w/LEOs for private companions.

Don't forget, I may never sell a puppy. I may just have my own totally private breeding program and place dogs occasionally as I see fit. Often, the dogs I like are not what the general public wants, and that's ok. I have already had 2 people commit to a puppy and they don't even know the sire yet. I am thrilled at this b/c these are excellent working homes that will be able to honestly evaluate what Capri is producing and tell me my next move.

I'm not looking to quit my job. Well, of course I am, but not because I sell that many puppies!

I think you misunderstand my intentions, Steve. I take no offense, but do think that you're missing a few key components, especially the dogs! They see the dogs, they like the dogs, they buy the dogs, years later they still like the dogs. Simple. I wouldn't flatter myself so much to think it's anything else.

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I think you misunderstand my intentions

Thats entirely possible. And sometimes we can pick out one small part of a post and give more importance to it then what was actually meant. I've just had the impression that you have been breeding and training dogs that were placed and working in different depts because you had some status or notoriety as a trainer. I do hope Capri turns out to be a fantastic dog for you.