delete double post

Edited by Connie Sutherland (01/23/2009 10:16 PM)
Edit reason: delete double post

From what I have been told he's always been a crier/whiner. Perhaps that bad behavior was improperly reinforced by giving more attention to him. I was told when I picked him up that when he cries to take him in and let him lay on the bed with me and pet him. I was stunned, I just looked at her and said, uh, that ain't gonna happen. lol...then she was telling me how she goes about picking him up , and I said you pick him up? SHe said yes, every day. Huh? Why? Again I said that ain't gonna happen. Good grief, this pup is going to need a lot of re-training I think.

Ya, that sounds like horrible training, socialization, etc. That's how dogs become dominant and everything you don't want in a dog.

 Quote: shell chamberlin

From what I have been told he's always been a crier/whiner. Perhaps that bad behavior was improperly reinforced by giving more attention to him. I was told when I picked him up that when he cries to take him in and let him lay on the bed with me and pet him. I was stunned, I just looked at her and said, uh, that ain't gonna happen. lol...then she was telling me how she goes about picking him up , and I said you pick him up? SHe said yes, every day. Huh? Why? Again I said that ain't gonna happen. Good grief, this pup is going to need a lot of re-training I think.

No perhaps about it. He has been trained to whine and cry.

"Good grief, this pup is going to need a lot of re-training I think."
Well, not so much, I betcha.

It will almost certainly escalate when you stop rewarding it, because he has been so well-trained that it is behavior that will be rewarded. He'll up the ante to his limit, and it will be hard not to give in. But if you give in once, then he will have been trained that really really bad whining/crying is required with you.

And there is another (maybe more important) side. That is to reward desired behavior. We tend to ignore a quiet dog and attend to a noisy one. If we do the reverse, then we reward what we want and what we do not want is extinguished for lack of nurturing.

I bought foam earplugs with the most recent adoption because he had been taught that to warble/whine/yodel at 6 a.m. would get everyone else out of bed. In order not to give in from exasperation (even getting up and ignoring him, I felt, would be giving him hope that his act would work), I stayed in bed with the earplugs.

That was extinguished in around 5 days. Sounds rough, but a 5-day investment has now paid off in 2-1/2 years' worth of a re-set alarm clock in his little brain. Now he comes to my bed and sits quietly beside it at 7. He has learned that this behavior works great. The few times that he urged me to get up with his old yodeling, I stayed in bed an extra ten minutes.

Boxers are vocal as a breed so I highly recommend earplugs. If you are afraid you won't wake up to your alarm clock in the morning they make alarm clocks that vibrate the bed. I don't see that anybody else mentioned it but you need to read and apply the article about groundwork to BOTH dogs. Take the next weeks to establish a relationship with the boxer and re establish a relationship with the dal. Primarily one where she isn't the alpha. It might help your husband if you typed up basic pack living rules and posted them around the house. It will help both of you to be on the same page. Spoiled dogs change fast. Especially one that has moved to a new environment like the boxer.

Progress Report:

Cathy and Connie you were right about the boxer adapting to the new environment and handling quickly. He is doing great, even went into the crate fairly easily the last 3 times. Slept like a baby in it the first night without crying or whining or waking me up. It will be awhile before he is completely comfortable going in on his own, my step son used the crate (actually a carrying kennel) as punishment. Yet another poor training decision. I give him a treat whenever he goes into the crate so he sees it as a positive experience, and don't let him out until there is a period of time that he is quiet. (per Ed)

His biggest issue is not being in the same room with a human, he doesn't like to be alone and does cry a lot which annoys the Dal. She watches him when he is vocalizing (perhaps sympathy?) until he lets out a ear splitter then she jerks her head back and turns and goes in the other direction.

So yesterday my husband came home from work and insists that whenever he used to bring home dogs in his previous home (meaning previous wife...lol) that he just put them together and everything was fine, and thinks that the problem now is there are too many rules. He said I think we should just put them in the same room and let them work it out. I said OK if that is what you REALLY want to do here's the deal. You bury the dead dog, take the othe to the vet and pay the vet bills. HA! He changed his mind and decided not to do that. We put each of them on a leash and sat in the same room with them (tight grips on the leashes of course). The Dal did a little growling, the boxer laid down at my husband's feet, and occassionally rolled over on his back which perked up the Dal and she kinda reached her head towards him when he did that. At one point my husband was talking to the Dal and she walked over to him while the boxer was lying on the floor beside him, and he rubbed the Dal's head. After about 5 minutes of this the boxer stood up and she started a throaty growl, lurched at him slightly and I instantly pulled her up and back and there was no contact. THe Dal and I retreated to our corners. This entire exercise took about 15 minutes, and my husband needed a break. HA! I had been working with this situation all day and had a headache from the whining and crying boxer (no earplugs yet) and HE needed a break.

Ok folks, go ahead and tell me what I did wrong, what I did right, how to convince the husband that what I am saying is not TOO many rules, etc. I think he would be perfectly content to be equal to the dogs. Last night he said, personally I don't have a problem with dogs on the furniture. Sigh

You sound a little frustrated. It really seems like a lot at the beginning but the dogs can have more freedom later and you'll adjust to it. Right now is "doggy bootcamp" time. Our Xena tore open my labs leg from his shoulder to about 2 inches above his paw a few months after we got her. Einstein was re-homed with my brother and his young husky(who Einstein adores). Xena got to go through groundwork with the rest of the dogs. That was probably about 2 years ago. We now have pretty loose restrictions with the dogs and no fights or rank issues. They are allowed on furniture with us if invited and we aren't eating. When it comes time for them to eat they must hold a sit stay in front of their food until released. They still don't get an enthusiastic greeting until they have calmed down and are behaving.

If your husband won't get on board and still insists on allowing the dogs to meet then the boxer needs to find a new home. Are there any rescues in the area that would take him? It's not fair for either of the dogs as they are most likely both confused at this point.

Does the dal have a crate yet? Are you doing the groundwork stuff with her? We found making meals a pack leadership exercise was a big deal with our dogs. If she knows sit then just pick the bowl up if she breaks the sit until she will wait for you to give her the okay. She perked up when he rolled over because that's a submissive gesture and she is convinced she's the alpha. How much exercise are the dogs getting especially the boxer. Does he have anything to do all day? Sorry for asking more questions right now but this kind of stuff is sooo much easier to talk about in person.

 Quote: cathy goessman

How much exercise are the dogs getting especially the boxer. Does he have anything to do all day?

This is a good question - all of your groundwork with both dogs will be easier if the dogs aren't bored and under exercised on top of everything else. Additionally, structured walks with one dog at a time will give you a great opportunity to shape your pack leadership - especially with the Dal, who still needs a lot of convincing that she's NOT the boss. Walking this dog Cesar Millan style could do wonders on it's own.

Keep at it Shell, you're in the right mindset here, you just need to stay with the program and keep at your husband whenever he thinks twice about it. HE may not have a problem with dogs on the couch, but if the Dal is allowed on the furniture, SHE likely won't be so liberal with the poor boxer and a fight could erupt in a heartbeat if he tries to share the cushion with her.

IMO I think it's too soon to be "testing" the dogs by having them both in the same room within striking distance of each other - even if they are on leashes. You create unnecessary tension with this situation (your attitude contributes to things as well and if YOU'RE stressed worrying about their interaction, it will travel down the leash) and it would seem more useful at this point to only allow each dog to relax with you, out of crate, as the only dog in the room. Eventually you will begin to bring them together, but patience will benefit everyone involved.

~Natalya

The hubby is former military right?

Explain to him that rank structure in the military exists for a reason, and so does pack rank structure.
Just because a dog is a subordinate, doesn't mean we don't love it- but it IS subordinate. Rank structure is necessary to accomplish the mission in the military, and it is necessary in the home to establish harmony.

A brand new Private fresh out of Basic Training doesn't want to command a Division. It'd be far too stressful. The stress would kill him.

Dogs don't want to run the pack, either. It's stressful and causes behavior issues.

Like the Private, they want clearly defined rules and regulations and a clear chain of command. It doesn't mean they have to be treated like crap- it just means they need structure to feel secure.

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

Like the Private, they want clearly defined rules and regulations and a clear chain of command. It doesn't mean they have to be treated like crap- it just means they need structure to feel secure.

That's a really nice analogy Alyssa.

~Natalya