Quote: mike j schoonbrood

 Quote:

I am wanting to train a dog in obedience and tracking, but it will also be a house dog that needs to be manageable indoors. If anyone else has information or an opinion feel free to post.

Show line's are great dogs if you are looking for a dog with a lack of drive, lack of will to please, and lack of attention span and focus. With some (a lot of) luck the dog will be trainable without making you go too crazy, but when you get his hip x-rays back you'll probably cry.

Go find a nice working line litter, there's plenty that'd fit the bill.

Ahhh... waking up to a grossly generalized statement like this is sooo refreshing!!

With all due respect Mike, you can't honestly believe that ALL show line dogs from Germany have NO focus, no drive, and no desire to please and that every working line dog will have tremendous drive and focus and will never give their owner's a moment of frustration. Obviously genetics play a part or serious breeders wouldn't be working so hard at selecting the right dog with the right traits, etc... but regardless, it is a crap shoot as to which dog from any given litter will develop into all it could/should be.

I had my pup evaluated by Armin Winkler at Schutzhund Village recently, whom I believe has a good reputation. He shared the following with me:

Falcon has above average drive/focus for a show line dog and should do fine in SchH if my goals were on the hobby level. He would never title internationally, but if I put in the money, time, effort, etc... he could do fine and we would have a good time. Believe it or not, for some of us this is just fine.

He also said " Two of the Schnauzers you saw are from my own breeding, strong hard hitting working line parents, the pups (now over 2 years old) are barely mediocre." Obviously, even with professional training, professional breeding, etc... genetics don't always produce that driven, focused, begging-to please-you-dog. It can be an indication, but if anyone could guarantee that every pup from every working line litter would produce the quintessential SchH dog, you would be able to charge a LOT more for your pups!

In my search for our pup, healthy hips was a huge concern. Perhaps I've been snookered (is that really a word?) but my research and internet lurking led me to understand that titles such as VA, KKL 1, "a", FH2, IP3 along with numerous SchH III levels at LEAST indicated that the breeder was striving to breed healthy dogs with good conformation and as good of hips as possible. I used this information in selecting my pup, and can only hope that the dice will roll in our favor as he ages.

We all have biases toward our favorite football team, political party (GAGGGGG ) etc... I appreciate your bias toward a good working line GSD, but assuming every dog you produced was hard biting, intense focus, always "on" and 100% ready to work, that may not be the best dog for the hobbiest or average dog owner who is looking for a family pet who can work in obedience and tracking... IMHO.

Hey Barbara, unfortunately Mike's statement isnt so much a generalization as it sounds. What he describes is more common then not. Falcon is probably more the exception then the rule and like you say, probably the perfect dog to learn with and for most of us, to live with.

If you think the 1/2 showline comments are bad, try a Rottweiler, Lol.

 Quote: barbara schuler

With all due respect Mike, you can't honestly believe that ALL show line dogs from Germany have NO focus, no drive, and no desire to please and that every working line dog will have tremendous drive and focus and will never give their owner's a moment of frustration.

Obviously, there are no absolutes in dogs.

If a breeder takes two of the best working line dogs in the world, with proven lines, and breeds a litter, there is a good statistical chance that even within that very strong, well-bred working litter, one or two of the pups will only be of pet-quality.

In other words, even when the genetic deck is stacked just right, some dogs are still going to be lacking in drive, temperment or nerves and therefore not have what it takes to do the work.

I, for example, picked one of the lower drive, softer dogs in an outstanding working litter (though compaared to non-working dogs, she's still quite the little monster). I wanted a dog that would be a pleasant companion in the home and with my son, but would still have the ability to dabble in Schutzhund as a hobby.

So then, take two dogs that have not been bred in many generations for work, and instead have been bred for "conformation". They've been bred almost entirely based on appearances, and perhaps their pleasantness as housepets.

On the surface, there is nothing wrong with this. The breeder is satisfying a desire in the market- nice looking dogs that make easy-going, friendly housepets.

However, going back to our first model, we see that even the best of genetic options will still lead to a few dogs that fall short of the breeder's intent.

So when the genetic options are narrowed (the sire and dam have not been selected for their drive or working ability), how many dogs in that litter will subsequently lack any ability to work at all? In fact, what is the percentage of likelihood that some of the dogs will in fact have BAD temperment or nerves, and not have much worth even as house pets?

This is not to say that there aren't the few, odd exceptions to that rule. In other words, occassionally, show-line litters will contain a pup that happened to luck out and receive fantastic genetics, and is perfectly suited to the work.

Falcon is probably one of those dogs.

BUT, that isn't proof that showline dogs are equal in working ability to dogs bred for work. It isn't proof that all showline dogs would be able to do the same level of work that a few of them can.

We've seen a Jack Russell Terrier peform at a Schutzhund III level.
That doesn't mean that everyone should rush out and get JRTs for Schutzhund.

Those dogs, however, are rare. Once significantly decreases the likelihood of getting a dog that can't do the work, by selecting a litter that was bred with the expectation that the dogs would receive genetics that enabled them to work.

I've said it before and I mean it... some of you guys have forgotten more than I can ever hope to learn about dogs and dog training and I find the information and support on this site priceless.

I'm sure Mike DOES know what he is talking about, but feel that his advice to a new, novice dog owner to go straight for a hard, working line dog may not have been the best advice. For someone with more experience and who is dead set on titles, etc... it would have made more sense. A few of the earlier responses which provided guidance on how to look at both lines, what to perhaps look for based on her lifestyle and goals seemed more fitting.

With that said, I learn something new every day on this site and appreciate the willingness on everyone's part to help us newbies navigate the muddy waters of raising an energetic puppy without losing our minds. (oops, another thing too late!)

 Quote: Loren Severs

Thank you that is very helpful information. I am just kind of on the fence between the two lines. I am wanting to train a dog in obedience and tracking, but it will also be a house dog that needs to be manageable indoors. If anyone else has information or an opinion feel free to post.

I have working line dogs and they all settle in the house just fine. If you want to train in ob and tracking I would definately look at the working lines, I think you will have an easier time of finding what you need in a dog.

Tell the breeder what you are looking for and a good breeder will match you up with the proper pup.

I'm not sure if it has been suggested or not but you may want to go to a few clubs and see the different type of dogs. It helps a lot.

And even when you think you know what you're getting, puppies are a crapshoot.

You raise this nice little puppy, whom you think you have all figured out, and then suddenly between 12-18 months the dog starts changing dramatically.

My sweet, soft little girl is turning into a hard, bitchy adult dog, with defense galore. She hints that she'd like to try personal protection when she turns two.

And here, I had doubts about a Schtuzhund dog with my son, LOL.

So, puppies are a crapshoot anyway you look at it.

Once of the finest dogs in my Schutzhund club came from a backyard breeder. Beautful bitch with fantastic balance and movement, plenty of drive and perfectly biddable dog. What a shame the vet talked him into spaying her before she was even a year old. She should be bred.

On the flip side, we had a dog in the club that came from two fantastic working dogs, everything you could ever want in a working pedigree. The dog just stared at the tug, has zero desire to work, and has shoddy nerves.

Both of these cases are exceptions to the rule.

Ultimately, if you are pleased with your dog, that is all that matters.

As an aside...Mike has a showline dog. He's not just randomly "hating." LOL.

 Quote: jenni williams

As an aside...Mike has a showline dog. He's not just randomly "hating." LOL.

I honestly didn't take anything he said as hateful; I guess I just find overly generalized comments worth debating/discussing. I've developed a better understanding of the difference between the two lines as a result, and see where he is coming from.

This pup of mine is more than enough for me to handle at this point in my life, but who knows... maybe after I make all my mistakes on him (poor child) I'll decide to do it again with a...dare I say... a WORKING line dog!!

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to go straight for a hard, working line dog

Did I say that? Bloodlines are NOT A STEPPING STONE. The individual temperament of the dog is a stepping stone. Theres plenty of lesser (er, I mean, "easier") working line dogs out there that make perfect pets, and with a little education and patience, it doesn't take much extra to live with a more driven GSD, because GSD's do settle down in the house really well.

Not all litters are great working prospects. Not all litters are uniform. So saying that, here, lets list the things that we look for in a dog (totally oversimplifying here):

1 Stable nerves
2 Drive
3 Correct structure
4 Good odds of having Good hips

Its always easier to find a dog that is considered a "reject" than it is to find a dog that is considered "great."

So lets say you want a "reject" working line dog as a pet. What makes the dog a reject? 9 times in 10, #2: "Drive" falls off the list. There is, however, usually enough drive to do SOMETHING with the dog, just not the work the dog was bred for to the standard of someone taking the work seriously. But 1, 3 and 4 are still there.

Since the likelihood of finding a "great" show line (unless you are buying an adult, and spend a lot of money, and spend much time looking) is very slim, and you can never predict what a puppy turns into... we're gonna assume that you end up with an "average" show line.

What would an average show line be made up of? You would not only lose #2 off the list, but also #1. #3 is ALWAYS off the list in show lines, thats what makes the dog a show line: poor structure. And the chances of #4 falling off the list are HIGH.

So looking at it in this way, wouldn't you rather get a "lesser" working line dog with stable nerves that are a dime a dozen, than go on a witch hunt for the show line that was blessed with a great set of genetics?

There are nice show lines out there, but the people who own them were more lucky than wise ("meer geluk dan wijsheid").