Nancy wrote: As for ecollars I have watch 3 dogs in our club go into total advoidance from the use of the collar. I would never put one on my dog. They can do a lot of damage if one is not used correctly or if the dogs temperment can not handle it.

***** I’d disagree with this first sentence. If anyone has put a dog into “total avoidance” it’s not “use” it’s MISUSE of the Ecollar. It’s this kind of misuse that gives the Ecollar a bad name. It’s quite interesting too, because I’m sure that you’ve seen dogs go into avoidance with a pinch collar used to forcefully. But few people will make this statement about a pinch collar.

***** I think that the appropriate response is not “never use an Ecollar” but to get training in the proper use of this tool. There isn’t anything that’s faster or surer when used properly.

***** As for your last sentence, ANY tool can be misused and I’ve never seen a dog who’s temperament couldn’t handle the proper use of an Ecollar.

Regards,

Lou Castle, Los Angeles, CA
(UnclLou@aol.com)

Shouldn't corrections be done without anger or frustration, leaving emotion out of it? I find those to be the most effective corrections and the dog understands what I want (if I'm doing it correctly). I don't understand how you're communicating with the dog better or how you'd have a better bond by using an e-collar. I've heard people say that before but I don't really believe it. I'd never use one. If I couldn't get my dog to do a particular exercise, I'd ask for help from a more experienced trainer. Just my opinion.

Lou, will you please tell me why people can't get it through their thick heads that an e-collar used on its lower levels is MUCH LESS stressful on a dog than even one of those ridiculous halties (Halties are good for some things, so don't anyone take this statement personally.) Choker collars (not prongs) are the most dangerous training tool out there, and the AKC recommends using only chokers. Ignorance frustrates the hell out of me.

Catherine,

Thank you for your opinion. I think everyone has to make that decision on using an E collar based on their own dog. I don't know what kind of collar you use on your dog but many times a pinch collar just isn't effective with a harder dog. It becomes a less forceful tool to use when a dog is thick headed. The E gets to point across in a second vs correcting him all day for the same mistake. Many hard dogs ingore pinch collar corrections and many people aren't strong enough to make their point with them. For the sport it reinforces things from a distance, especially in bite work. I think an E collar is great with all types of dogs-sensitive, strong, high drives etc.. The main thing is proper use as we have discussed. I stated in an early post that using low stimulus E on my dog is far less painful mentally and physically than using a prong. You have to be comfortable in what you use and your dog has to be comfortable in what you are using. My dog happens to not like the prong so I don't use it. My younger dog, yes, I use the prong. His personality is much more resilient. My older dog gets excited when he sees the E collar because he associates it with something he enjoys---bitework. If he hid from it I wouldn't use it. It works for me and him. I evaluate each dog I own and only use the E when it fits that particular dog. To each his own and happy training <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

the effectiveness of any correction is a function of 1) timing and 2) level of correction. Some people have lousy timing, and it won't matter what method they use they will get poor results. Many people don't understand level of correction either. If you correct too hard you will create problems. A blanket statement about the "best" method is always going to have problems. The "best" method is the one that works for the individual trainer. It is easy to mis-use any form of correction. I know people that can put a good correction on a dog with a 2" flat collar. By a good correction I mean an effective correction that changes the undesired behavior. Everybody has a method that works for them and most people won't change their mind as far as what they think is best.

Ken wrote: Lou, will you please tell me why people can't get it through their thick heads that an e-collar used on its lower levels is MUCH LESS stressful on a dog than even one of those ridiculous (other type of training devices).

***** Ken in my travels around the country and around the Internet I’ve found few topics that evoke as much emotion as Ecollars. I think that the main problem is that VERY few trainers understand them and fewer still use them properly. But that doesn’t stop them from using them. Often they cause more problems than they correct and then they blame the tool rather than their own misuse of it.

***** Many of us have seen this problem and have even used this method to fix it. I know I did, (back in the dark ages of my learning to become a trainer). The dog won’t do a call off and so the trainer backties the dog to something solid, with a 45 foot line and puts the decoy at the 50 foot mark. He has the handler give the call off command when the dog is at 40 feet. When he doesn’t comply he gets a 30-mph correction that flips him over backwards and he comes slinking back to the handler. The results of this are immediate and obvious. The dog won’t go out the next time he’s sent for a bite. He balks. Or he goes out about 20 feet and comes back. Or his bite is weak or he drops off in anticipation of the out. These problems usually take a bout a week to fix but then the call off is gone again.

***** I go roundabout in solving this problem with an Ecollar. The rest of the dog’s work doesn’t suffer and there’s little impact on the dog than is involved in the average OB session worked on a leash and correction collar.

***** I use low levels of stim to first teach a “here” command. Then I dial up the level of distraction in controlled increments until the dog is performing no matter what the distraction. Then I use multiple decoys to keep the dog’s brain engaged. Then I work on some biting and then the call off.

***** Ecollars get a bad rap from trainers who don’t understand them and misuse them, or worse, they THINK they know how to use them. Then they blame the Ecollar for the problem that their poor training has created.

***** I use an Ecollar on just about every dog that I train. I love dispelling myths, superstitions and rumors about them.

Karmen,

First let me say I'm a novice at this. I use a prong collar on my pup and as long as I correct her unemotionally she is fine. Where I get into trouble is when I correct her in anger or frustration.

I don't understand how you evaluate whether an e-collar is less stressful mentally on a dog if you're doing leash corrections correctly.

If a dog can't be corrected with a prong collar, isn't something wrong with that dog or the bond between the dog and handler? I would think that if the bond and communication were there, the dog would obey without an e-collar.

Catherine,

You make assumtions about peoples dogs because they use the E collar. You say there must be something wrong with the dog. OK let's say someone comes to you with a dog that is obviously out of control a GSD. You bring out a pinch collar and a leash and that person freaks out. No way in hell you are putting that abusive thing on their animal. Tell me how would you explain the use of pinch collar to someone who refuses to open their mind to the concept (let's say the refuse to get rid of the dog either). There are many people out there that feel the same way about a pinch collar as the electric and would be making the same assumtions about you, your dog and training. Just because you use a certain collar doesn't mean you don't communicate well with your dog. My dog and I communciate on all levels of our relationship not just training. I am very happy with the training I do so I will stick with what works and makes my dog happy I suggest you do the same. E collars will forever be controversial. Good luck to all in your training, whichever way you may chose. I am off to Vegas for the week. Talk to you folks after I have hit the jack pot

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Maybe I do have a thick head and am ignorant. However, even if the e-collar is less stressful, how does it promote a better bond and better communication with your dog? If you do correct properly (fairly, with no emotion) and have a bond of trust and respect with your dog, a dog isn't damaged mentally.

With a thick-headed dog, I would wonder how it was raised so it got to that point. Were corrections done properly from the beginning? Why was it allowed to get to that point? Also, if the bond or trust isn't there, isn't it true that the dog is less likely to obey?

Well said.