I'm becoming interested in Schutzhund for lots of reasons. I'd like to improve my fairly limited training abilities, I'd like to learn to bring my dog as far as it can genetically go and/or as far as I end up wanting it to go, and I want to spend time with my dog and with people from whom I can learn. I hope those reasons won't prove to be a "waste of time" for Schutzhund folks more determined or ambitious than me.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm with ya Johne! You and I have the same thought process for being intrested in Schutzhund. I as well want to improve my training abilities and learn all I can from experenced handlers and helpers... this board and Ed's tapes are a good start I feel. I wish you luck!

Mike wrote:

<<I know a guy in Germany that will not touch a dog, unitl it is aleast a year and he uses from the start strict complusion on the dog, a little praise and not your regular food, toy training and the end result are dogs that look pretty good,>>

I meant to reply to this earlier, but dog training got in the way <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and I see that this issue has already been addressed in depth, and revised by Mike himself. I just want to add that most top dogs imported from Germany by top competitors had to be retrained, particularly in obedience, just BECAUSE they were trained by traditional German trainers through nothing but strict compulsion. American judges like to see a dog who shows "joy in the work", which can never be accomplished by compulsion alone. And believe me, from personal experience, it is much more difficult to get a happy picture from a "compulsed" (a new word) dog than the other way around.

Another point:

<<but the way most of these guys train that are at the top, they prety much stick to the same way.>>

I beg to differ. IMO guys that are at the top tend to stick to the same type of dog-usually super hard. Therefore it might seem that they train different dogs the same way, but it's basically the same type of dog.

And finally I agree with Ken that:

<<compulsion needs to be balanced with praise and rewards.>>

OOOPS...

I used the wrong quote marks and deleted the quotes, sorry... So here we go again--

Mike wrote:

***I know a guy in Germany that will not touch a dog, unitl it is aleast a year and he uses from the start strict complusion on the dog, a little praise and not your regular food, toy training and the end result are dogs that look pretty good,****

I meant to reply to this earlier, but dog training got in the way <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and I see that this issue has already been addressed in depth, and revised by Mike himself. I just want to add that most top dogs imported from Germany by top competitors had to be retrained, particularly in obedience, just BECAUSE they were trained by traditional German trainers through nothing but strict compulsion. American judges like to see a dog who shows "joy in the work", which can never be accomplished by compulsion alone. And believe me, from personal experience, it is much more difficult to get a happy picture from a "compulsed" (a new word) dog than the other way around.

Another point:

*** but the way most of these guys train that are at the top, they prety much stick to the same way.***

I beg to differ. IMO guys that are at the top tend to stick to the same type of dog-usually super hard. Therefore it might seem that they train different dogs the same way, but it's basically the same type of dog.

And finally I agree with Ken:

****compulsion needs to be balanced with praise and rewards.***

Maybe now it will make more sense, hopefully...

Johne And Lonne:

Don't take me wrong. Spending quality time with your dog is great. Teaching him some obedience work is fun and practical at the same time. Going to your local Schutzhund club and watching can be fun and educational. But please don't waste the time of my training director and helper if your dog does not posses the genes to do this work. Schutzhund is the Olympics of dog sports. There is a member at my club who comes 3 times a week religiously and after months of work her dog still won't bite the sleeve. Hello? Maybe this sport is not for your dog. Try something else. That's all I meant. No offense to your motivations in the sport. I'm sure you have very lovely dogs. Good luck with them.

Vince, look at it this way: at least this person comes to the club religiously. Her dog may never amount to anything, but maybe she is getting hooked on the sport. Sometimes it takes a long time for a person to realize that the dog is not suitable, especially if it's your first dog. At least she is learning and will eventually come to the realization that if she wants to pursue the sport, she will need to get another dog. If that happens, your TD's and helper's time is far from wasted. I've seen numerous cases when the opposite was true--a person shows up with a great dog, the dog is progressing nicely and then all of a sudden that person stops coming--too far to drive, too much work, other hobbies take over, etc. Now, this is what I call waste.

Vince, no offense taken. And I certainly agree with you that one has to be realistic about a dog's genetic capability. I'm hoping my unbred pup (gads, the wait is killing me) will have what it takes to compete in WST or BST or maybe even Schutzhund. I've chosen a very highly regarded breeder because I am concerned about my future pup's genetic background. And I'm reading Ed's web site and watching his videos, and listening to people like you and others on this site to learn as much as I can before the pup arrives. The more I learn the more I am interested in getting involved in Schutzhund.
But no matter how much I learn, and how genetically capable my dog is, I am still gonna be a newbie in Schutzhund, despite any previous dog training experience I may have, and I know there will be people out there who don't wanna deal with newbies.
And I can feel for your frustration with the person who is slow in realizing (alright, oblivious to the reality of) her dog's limitations. But even if the pup isn't learning, maybe the owner is, and maybe next time she gets a pup she'll choose one as a result of learning from her experiences.
Finally, I hope the next dog you call lovely nips ya in the butt. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

John

John,

Waiting is a killer isn't it!! I have 6 weeks until my new girl comes home and it is making me crazy too!

Patience is a virtue at times. I have seen some dogs I never thought would get it, and one day the light just goes on and they do fine. There are limits, but some dogs are just slow starters. If the dog has been firmly corrected for mouthing it may take a while for it to figure out that biting is now OK.

Richard, yes waiting is a killer. LOL
And one of the things I remembered from field training Labs is the need to direct mouthiness, not discourage it. Hopefully I'll remember that when the little alligator gets here.
John

I don't know either of you but you both sound like dog lovers. So you are all right in my book. And yes I love to see the enthusiasm in a newbies eyes. But some of us out there are one point away from our next title. It’s tires the hell out of my helper and training director to work with a dog that we all know does not have the genetics to do the work. I sat three days a week on a bench for a year before I took a dog onto a field. You’d be surprised how much you can learn from watching and asking questions. I love to talk. I talk too much sometimes. You can’t ask me too many questions. And remember my post. I wrote about the far left and far right. These are the exceptions not the rule. I better see some pictures posted on the net after your pups are born!