First. I start tracking, obedience and protection at 8 weeks old. But my dog does not know this until much later. He just thinks we are playing. He thinks he is doing what he wants but in reality he is doing what I want. I make a super simple track with food in each step and a reward at the end. My dog is hungry so he eats. To him it is the same thing he did the night before in my kitchen. But I just imprinted into to his head that the smell of a foot breaking through grass is associated with food. Just like when he sees his bowl he knows food is coming. He knows that every footstep has a piece of food. No corrections so no loss of drive. Kevin, every correction reduces drive. Sure you can correct a puppy to death and he might bounce back and be a solid dog. But he would have been that much better if you did not. Why loose any potential. The same for obedience. He thinks wow every time I lay down I get a piece of hotdog. I had a puppy once that got his toy stuck behind the couch. He stared at his toy and started downing over and over again. In his mind he knew that he got what he wanted ever time he laid downed. So in his head he though that the ball would come to him if he downed. I was laughing hysterically. This dog downed on the field like you dropped a bowling ball on his head. This was done from good imprinting. I let a pup be a pup. This is a time to build confidence, develop drive and for imprinting. I have had top trainers on the east coast tell me that if they were to purchase a pup they would let me raise it until maturity. They said I had the patience of a saint and the praise of a proud mother. Two traits that a typical male trainer does not posses but is vital in raising a puppy.

I see a picture of a puppy downing over and over again in front of his toy and all I can think is why would you ever do that to a dog or want a dog to do that? Looks like building drive builds craziness or robot-like non-thinking behavior in a dog.

I'm getting the picture.

Vince and others, a quick question--
When training I tried never to let the dog find food in the field. He always had to look to my hand or mouth for food. I didn't want my dogs to think they could pick up and eat anything they found, and I wanted them to think of me as the horn of plenty. I was concerned about poisoned or spoiled items, or just inappropriate items. Other folks giving food treats, under my direction, was also used. Am I being overly concerned about this? Thanks for your opinions.
John

Vince,
I know what you mean. Mine learn in puppyhood that you earn treats by doing as you are asked, which could be *sitz* *platz* or *gib laut*. When my Big Boy, Thunder really wants something, he will run thru the entire repetoire, he'll start w/a sit, all bright eyed, gets no response, he'll do a rather theatrical platz and if all else fails, gib laut <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
No, Catherine, you aren't getting the picture. Dunno if you just can't or you choose not to. From what Laura posted earlier, you certainly have access to skilled trainers, I think you prefer to sit at the computer and argue about things you don't understand vs getting out there and actually training.

You really want a dog that will do anything for a toy? What effect does that have on the bond with your dog? It lessens it, doesn't it?

On the contrary, the picture is getting clearer all the time.

Vince--
I don't think that correcting a pup or young dog will kill his "drive". I have an 11 mo. old GSD that absolutely loves to track. I mean he loves it. When he senses a track coming up he will begin to whine, he wants to work. I got him at four months of age and started obedience under stress, tracking, agility, etc. He also received corrections for inappropriate behavior and also when he had learned to do something (and I was sure he knew what I was asking) and he didn't obey, he got a correction. I don't see his desire to work diminished at all. In fact, I don't believe in the whole "drive theory". If you saw my dog you would probably say he didn't have any "drive" at all. Yet he is in my opinion a great working dog. He is not trained for a sport but for personal protection and we are getting involved with SAR.

Johne--
I would agree with you about letting the dog eat off of the ground. I never allow my dog to eat anything from anywhere other than his bowl. I also do not allow anyone else to feed him. But I do not agree with using food or toys in training at all.

I agree with Catherine, I do not see the dog downing over and over to get a toy as a good thing.

Kevin-

What happened to the dog that swallowed the ball? I see this as a distraction in training..imho!

IN DEFENSE OF VINCE'S CRAZY ROBOT-LIKE PUP :rolleyes:

Gee, what do you see there that I don't? I thought it was a funny story--the puppy was trying to communicate to his owner who was too busy laughing hysterically that he wanted his ball. He learned from cause and effect that downing produces the ball from the owner (smart puppy) and since in the puppy's mind the owner was too dense to get it the first time, he tried it over and over again. No more and no less.

DING DING

Folks we have a winnah!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Kevin,

It easy to get overly wound up in discussions about "drives" and miss the point. The point is that you always train with drives, the rewards just change. What vince and others are talking about is building a higher level of excitement in the dog to create a "flashier" dog in ring. You are actually doing the same thing at a lower of desire for the reward.

There are 2 problems starting puppies with corrections at a young age. First is physology. A puppies neck can't take a correction from a slip collar at that age (<5-6 mos)since you risk damaging the dogs neck. You night get away better with light corrections on a flat collar, but I wouldn't push it too much. It would be easy to scare a puppy and create a problem later. Second, puppies have problems understanding corrections. It is like dealing with little kids, the discipline has to be something they understand. The best comparison I can think of is spanking. Properly done you may get away with it without causing problems, but if it isn't done properly you may create a bully that sees force as the only way to get what you want. Often at the cost of the childs confidence. The same thing can happen with a puppy.

One of the things you find in operant conditioning is that rewards will increase and maintain learning better than punishment. It is like the old saying "you will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar!"

Your example of tracking is a description of a dog with good drive, that is why he whines to go track. Like a lot of things in dog training the idea is the same, the terminology is just different.

As for the puppy downing repeatedly, it is in the catagory of a puppy doing something funny that they think will get them what they want. I am sure if you think about it you could come up with a similar story from your own experience. Dogs always come up with something that will just make you laugh your ass off.