I am headed out the door, now, but I will respond when I get home this evening. I am sure others will elaborate in my stead before then...

Lol. Thank you for the distinction, Randy. Yes, that has been my impression of those breeds as well, but, if I may be so bold as to say so, I believe the other two posters believe the opposite - that, the far majority of the time, those breeds will not back up their bark with physical contact with the intruder.

I am, as you stated Randy, interested in breeds that will of course present the visual intimidation, but that will resort to physical contact to protect its people.

I'm not necessarily looking to take the dog through protection training, but I'm not anywhere near opposed to the idea either. Basically, if it was termed that either a GSD or a Great Pyrenees could meet my criteria, and I went with a GSD, I would probably look to go into formal protection training, or Schutzhund, Ring Sport, etc. If I went with a Great Pyrenees, then I would not as they are not fit for that sort of activity. However, I am more interested in just determining the pool of breeds that could be on my short list.

Vito

well I believe I'm off to bed as it's quite late in Tokyo...I may spend a good portion of my day off sleeping....

I look forward to further conversation tmr....thanks for all the input so far...it's been a pleasure!

Vito

Shrug,
Doesn't matter to me. I'd say they haven't met too many of the breeds mentioned.
If I were to pick out the most iffy and uneven of the three I'd say the Pyrenees.
And, I did give the qualifier before I started, good lines.

Just in case you missed it though, I like GSD's.

Randy

 Quote: vito polera

...I've been interested in finding a protective dog that could defend my loved ones should some baddie (God forbid) attack them...

 Quote: vito polera

...I would like a dog that would physically defend, not just bark or growl, if someone should attack a loved one...

 Quote: alyssa myracle

...99.9% of attackers will be deterred by a very convincing, large barking dog of known working type. The type of criminal that will ignore the big barking dog on the other side of the door, is the type of criminal who will simply shoot the dog...

 Quote: vito polera

...the far majority of the time, those breeds will not back up their bark with physical contact with the intruder.

I am, as you stated Randy, interested in breeds that will of course present the visual intimidation, but that will resort to physical contact to protect its people...

I would like to say upfront that sometimes the tone of a post is hard to get online. I mean this very respectfully, but I think you are being a little fanciful in what you expect a dog to be able to accomplish.

You would like a dog to physically defend your family if some bad person attacked them. I believe this is important to you. In a real life attack, you don't gain as much from this as I think you believe you will.

I suspect you haven't been attacked by someone who wants to really hurt you. You seem to believe that a dog physically defending you will take care of the attacker.

I'm sorry, but it usually won't. Dogs are fairly easy to kill. If someone really means to hurt you, even if the dog engages the person physically, it will slow down a serious attacker. It's not the total solution.

The vast majority of the time, attackers are looking for "victims" not "sparring partners," which is why a good bark on an intimidating looking dog is usually effective.

What do you hope to gain if the dog will physically engage? I'm not saying that's a bad goal. Just keep in mind what you really expect and want the dog to accomplish and compare that to how crime really happens.

Having a clear picture in your mind of what a dog can actually do for home security will make it easier to decide what breeds might fit your lifestyle.

Edited by MichelleMeyer (04/20/2009 04:52 PM)
Edit reason: edited to make more sense

There's another side to it too.

You certainly could get a dog that would make physical contact. Even in "off" breeds you could accomplish this with enough searching for the right dog, the right training, maybe going through a few dogs until you found the right one, maybe a bit of luck, etc... but then you have a dog that will physically engage someone.

Be careful what you wish for and just make sure that's what you want. It sounds great, but reality, for me, was different than what I thought it would be like.

Please do get a dog that will physically defend if that's what you want, but keep in mind that this is a living being.

Sometimes what a dog considers to be a defendable threat does not match what people and the legal system considers a threat.

A dog that will physically engage may take it upon itself to do so in situations you didn't consider a threat. It adds a whole extra layer of responsibility to the whole thing.

It matters not to me what kind of dog or lifestyle you would like with it. I just wanted to share some things to think about as you conduct your research.

Best wishes in finding that great match for you and your loved ones.

Yep.

 Quote: vito polera

Lol. Thank you for the distinction, Randy. Yes, that has been my impression of those breeds as well, but, if I may be so bold as to say so, I believe the other two posters believe the opposite - that, the far majority of the time, those breeds will not back up their bark with physical contact with the intruder.

I really don't expect ANY dog to naturally fight a man.
They must be trained to do so reliably. The question isn't ability to fight- it is ability to learn and be trained.
I do not believe that many dogs are capable of being Protection Trained. They may have one or two traits, but lack the others that make them suitable for the training and work.

The problem with expecting ANY pet dog to protect you, is that from the time you get the dog, you spend all your time teaching the dog that it isn't in control.

You decide when the dog should go outside - and when it should come in.

You decide when it is time to go for a walk - and when it isn't.

You control the food, the toys, the fun, the reward, the punishment, the shelter and every other aspect of the dog's life.

You say, "No, don't chase that cat!"
"No, don't knock the children down!"
"No, don't chew on that!"
"No, don't pee there!"
"No, don't bite me!"
"No, don't bite my wife!"
"No, don't bite my friends/neighbors/the postman!"


Then suddenly, the dog is supposed to magically know that when someone breaks into the house in the middle of the night, you are no longer in charge? Now he runs the roost, and is responsible for calling the shots that you have always called for him. How is he supposed to know?


To implement pack structure, discipline and obedience in a dog, to teach it to bend to your will, and then expect him to one day reverse years of training in a split second to protect you (how does he even know you NEED protecting?) is idyllic, but unrealistic.

Dogs must be trained, and they must have innate drives and temperments that permit that training to be effective.

There are dogs out there that due to territorial drives, resource guarding or other innate behavior quirks, will provide protection for their owners.

It would be impossible, without actually placing the dog in that situation, to ever know if the dog was that rare dog or not.

Your own response in a situation like that will greatly affect the way a dog reacts. The same exact dog may react to the same exact situation, two very different ways- IF you reaction is also different.

I would look into working line GSDs before I wrote the breed off for health reasons. That was a concern for me, before I had heard of working lines.

My GSD is loud and can sound very mean. Unlike Alyssa, who does Schutzhund with her dog, Hans hasn't had any sport or bite training. But he is territorial and sounds loud and scary and a bad guy (or anyone else for that matter) will know he is here long before they get close enough to see him. And I think that is a lot of deterrent for all but the most determined.

Whatever you decide to do, don't do it in a hurry. Take the time to do thorough research, ask lots of questions, and as someone else suggested, look for threads and posts that Will Rambeau has participated in.

You bring up an interesting point Alyssa,
Nature......Nurture
Genetics can only take a dog so far. What happens after the zygote is formed depends largely on outside influences.
So as we're talking about the guardian breeds I think it bears mentioning the other point you brought up.
Socialization. As the dog is growing and learning to get by in the world we allow them, almost everyone goes out of their way to teach the dog that the human species at large are it's friend, but then expect that same dog to take on one of those friends when the entry is the back window. Rather unreasonable if you ask me.
And I think it is of particular import when talking about the guardian breeds, what is it one is teaching it to guard against if guarding is the intent?
At the minimum the dog should be completely neutral to anyone outside of the pack.

I have to respectfully disagree on how willingly the livestock guardians will take on a human. They were bred for a single purpose and one purpose only. To defend and hold intact the integrity of the pack against all comers, wheather the pack be a flock of lambs, a herd of goats, or a family of five. That is their hardwiring, from their point of view they have no other reason to live.
How trainable they happen to be for anything else is beside the point.

Randy