I hit dogs with sticks for free.
Some people even ASK me to hit their dogs.

 Quote: Scott Garrett

.... You actually can learn a great deal from a video.

You can indeed. Especially LB videos. JMHO.

 Quote: Scott Garrett

I don't think you can accurately presume to know my dog's reaction when you didn't see it or hear the pitch of the growl. You could sure ask some questions about it, though.

I'm asking.

 Quote: alyssa myracle

Corgis don't do Schutzhund.
Wanna know why? (hint- it ain't size)

My violin never cared if I forgot to rosin my bow.
My dog cares very much if I do too much defense work before she's ready.

Funny, it doesn't seem like rough housing is breed specific. I never said a word about SchH.

I think I see what's going on here. You saw "I can has defense drive" and assumed I was putting him into defensive work? I was referring to myself and was absolutely not doing defense work either 1) with my own dog or 2) with a seven month old puppy. I was playing with him and doing something that I've done a few times before, that was just the first time he play growled in response. I used the word "preyful" to mean "playfully in prey drive" and because it sounds like Engrish for "playful". It was play, nothing else. See below for my description of the growling.

 Quote: connie sutherland

"I get paid to hit things with sticks ...."

Any openings?

Always. Fees range.

 Quote: randy allen

So there's no problem? No questions to answer?

I must admit this thread has progressed in a somewhat chromatic scale.

But seems to have ended engrandezza taking the unlikely form of a motet.

The question was in the first post. I ended up answering it for myself and posted my findings for others who might have the same issue.

The cliff's notes to the topic are:
I thought my puppy was scared of the tug, because I thought I accidentally bopped him upside the head after it slipped out of his mouth, while I was working him side to side. It turned out that he was going for a deep bite at the same time I was encouraging a deep bite by pushing the tug further into his mouth. He didn't like that and went into active submission. He was crated and I asked the question. Later that same Batnight, I encouraged him to take the tug from my hand as gently as he wanted. After we built his confident on it back up and he pulling against me with all he had, I started to rough house with him like I did/do with my older dog and have done with him before by gently smacking him on his shoulders and sides. He growled playfully for the first time ever and went even further into prey/play drive pulling harder than I've ever felt him pull. An incorrect assumption was then made and perpetuated that I was putting him into defense by doing this. I am now attempting to clear up that misunderstanding. And thus we have your chromatic topic for the choir. Nice musical reference, by the way.

Hopefully that sums it up.

 Quote: connie sutherland

You can indeed. Especially LB videos. JMHO.

I'm asking.

Indeed. I've learned a great deal from them already. If this recession hadn't hit my businesses so hard I'd have already ordered quite a few of them as well as gotten myself to a SchH club by now. Until things pick back up, I'm stuck asking questions on the internet and watching videos. That might make be a bad owner in some people's eyes, but at least I'm trying where many pet owners don't.

Thank you for asking. When I've heard Duke growl aggressively (per http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/239569/page/1#Post239569) it's been the typical deep rumble that carries for a 2-3 seconds. When I've heard him growl because he's just unhappy with a situation, it's a medium pitched growl mixed with a whine that can carry on for five or more seconds. That's always when Rasta's being fed and Duke has to wait in his crate for his turn (we feed them separately and outside because the raw chicken cleanup is easier). The growls in question were higher pitched and in short bursts, kind of like rolling the "r" in Spanish compared to how deep and throaty some Japanese men speak (think Sato from the Karate Kid II). His signs of "stress" included profuse wagging of his upright tail, gleefully running away with his hard earned prize to end of the 30' lead he was on, "killing it" by shaking it so hard his front feet came off the ground, play bowing at me while biting the tug a few more times, and then gleefully running back to me full speed for some more apparent stress when I called him. Context, indeed. Or maybe I'm just hopelessly inept at reading a dog.


--------------
I just wanted thank all of you for taking the time to reply to my topic.

Let us know when his bites get chewy and frontal.

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

Let us know when his bites get chewy and frontal.

In one of our first conversations I mentioned that I allowed him to develop a mouthy grip by giving him squeaky toys that he loved to make squeak. He's doing better, but he'll still mouth/chew the tug after he wins it and runs off. I've just recently got him to hold it when he comes back to me by bringing him into my arms, stroking him down his side from collar to hip, and putting my other hand on his bottom jaw when he starts to mouth the tug. Not sure what to do about him mouthing/chewing it at the end of the 30' lead though.

He's learning quickly that shallow bites just mean that he loses the toy and has to work to get it back...hence the original issue of the topic. I do everything I can to avoid suicide rabbit. When he gets his mouth close I pull the tug away quickly to build frustration (no frustraion of prey bark as you mentioned in Jennifer's topic about teaching Teagan defense barking). When he finally does get it I make him work pretty hard for it by going side to side and actively trying to pull the tug out of his mouth. It seems that he's losing it when he goes to adjust his bite. He's also hitting the middle of the tug more often than not, now. This is how I'm holding the tug, only with my right hand further towards the end ( http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g181/91SiZ6/pets/duke094.jpg). I also bring it and myself down to his shoulder level when he's tugging, which I learned from a picture Ingrid posted.

He's never had a really deep bite, which I've come to understand is a genetic trait. It's usually a 1/2-3/4 bite, which is why I was encouraging a deeper bite. Am I'm doing it wrong and encouraging bad bites?

Shallow bites can be genetic, or they can be the result of working a dog in defense before it is ready.
More often than not, defense too soon is the culprit.

A chewy bite isn't generic, per se.
Chewy is the result of anxiety and uncertainty. Could be caused by pressure from the helper (in this case, you), handler conflict (also you), over-outting the dog, genetically poor nerves, pain, fatigue, and so forth.

A helper touching a dog during bitework illicits defense, ESPECIALLY in a puppy (I know you disagree about the growl, but I don't have to see it to identify it).



Prey and defense are not black and white Scott. Good helpers cycle a dog through prey and defense so fast the dig hardly knows what's happening.


When the helper touches a dog, he's attempting to elicit defense. Depending on the dogs thresholds, he may or may not get it.
You are getting defense.

Neither you, nor your dog, are ready for defense.

PLEASE find a club.

Would you like to donate $100 a month so I can afford to go? Or would you rather stop nagging me like you're my mother or wife?

It's rough house play, not defense. Sorry you disagree but you don't know me or my dog, even though you seem to think you do...which is pretty arrogant, by the way.

People who know me in real life actually consider me to be a very good teacher.

As far as his mouthiness, I already outlined where that is and why it happened. Are you just skimming?

 Quote: Scott Garrett

Would you like to donate $100 a month so I can afford to go? Or would you rather stop nagging me like you're my mother or wife?

It's rough house play, not defense. Sorry you disagree but you don't know me or my dog, even though you seem to think you do...which is pretty arrogant, by the way.

People who know me in real life actually consider me to be a very good teacher.

As far as his mouthiness, I already outlined where that is and why it happened. Are you just skimming?

YEAH, ALYSSA, DON'T YOU GET IT!?

He answered his own question. He doesn't need any help from you or any of the experienced handlers! He can teach himself!

LOL

Dogs don't have ESP. Regardless of your INTENT, it's still defense-illiciting.

I'm sorry you take advice and knowledge given freely as lecturing. See how easily intent goes out the window? I had no intent of putting you into defense, and yet, here we are...

I'm shocked there are no cheaper clubs. Mine costs $110 per YEAR.
At least, go to a Michael Ellis seminar.

I'll leave off giving advice unless specifically solicited, I can see we have a commo barrier.

I have seen more than one handler express surprise and disbelief (and finally dismay) when it was pointed out to them that were eliciting a defense response.