LC: I agree with the first part of this paragraph but the last sentence throws me. I don?t think that pinning the puppy establishes leadership. It just teaches that the handler is bigger and stronger than the puppy, something he really already knows. Leadership is established by being a fair and just leader, by earning the puppy?s trust and respect. The puppy may later follow commands out of fear of the handler, but it won?t be because he respects him as a leader. That can?t be done with one event; it takes a bit of time. But it can be UNDONE with one event, particularly if it involves violence.

Me:That is essentially the point I'm making. Call it pinning or rolling, there is still an element of force involved, given that Kali's pin may not be THAT unpleasant, it is still asserting dominance by force.

Unless you were training the position with a reward just like it were an obedience exercise. Richard, I take it that is what your point was.

Seems to me to still be an action that is not really necessary.

VanCamp,

Richard started to explain why I do this quite well. And Lou is correct that it is less of an alpha roll and more of a pinning excersize done to, as Richard said, reassert leadership and obedience.

I really don't consider this a drastic measure. I do not use FORCE when using this technique. My dogs do have to comply, and perhaps some would call that force, but I don't have to force them to go onto their backs because they do already look to me as leader. They know they have to comply to this in the same manner as if I told them to "sit."

I feel that it works for me and my dogs because I use it only to reassert myself as my dogs' leader. I use it, for instance, when they get unruly in the house or when their attention on me lapses distinctly during training. 9 times out of 10 it "re-connects" them to me. That one time it doesn't, I would use other methods to correct the situation (NOT the slamming, forceful alpha roll).

I started this when we rescued a 6 week old GSD. She is bashful, but extremely dominant (yes--she is actually dominant). Because she had been removed from her mother too early, she did not understand the other, more subtle ways of establishing us as her leaders. This was one of the few ways we could get through to her.

I do not train my dogs for protection (I don't have a thing against it--I love to see a SchH dog work--I just have not gotten involved with the sport due to time spent with my current dogs). I work with GSDs for the German SV ring and competitive obedience. I would not use an alpha roll (or this "pinning excersize") with a protection dog. As I stated before, it is not for everyone; but, using this technique in this manner, I have found it to work for me.

Hope this answers your questions VC! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And YES, I do train the postition with a reward! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

My dogs learn that submitting to me quietly and quickly in this way gets them lots of lovin' and "good girls."

Please keep in mind that my dogs are NEVER frightened or FORCED into this situation. I have not ever seen either of my dogs' drive for obedience be diminished by this.

I had a feeling that the trainer was alfa rolling babys. I would turn her in to the ASPCA. She has most likly ruined many puppy's this way. Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've never had to "show my dominance in a physical way" I'm of the belief that if you teach the pup when it is young that you are the leader (by OB, firm voice etc) that you really never have these problems. I suppose the alfa roll would be advisable with an extremely dominate dog that just can not be taught any other way. I have yet to see a dog that needed this, but I'm sure they are out there. In the end it all boils down to "I'm the BOSS and I will be obeyed.

Kim, unfortunately you are right <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> . She has ruined many of young dogs. I know of a couple of them that were Gamma's and now when they see a person come they automatically come over to you all curled up in a, tail between their legs, peeing all over, then you go to pet them, they flip over and start peeing-alot. Some now have seperation anxiety, and a few I was told by my vet had to be put down because of fear aggression. She is ruining dogs. Scariest part is-she breeds, but she was kicked out of the AKC-GO AKC <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I did find out that she is not allowed to train in my town-but she is training about 20 minutes away People will learn but unfortunately it is only the poor dogs that suffer. What always gets me is-if they saw someone do this to a child, they would quite taking their child their and she would be in jail, but because it is a dog, so many times the law turns their cheek and the owner thinks the handler knows best.

NEW DOG OWNERS IF YOUR NOT COMFORTABLE WITH WHAT THE HANDLER IS DOING OR HAVING YOU DO WITH YOU DOG-STOP THEM!!!!
I can't believe that you don't have to have a certificate to do training and that no one (from what I have heard) checks up on you

Just my 2 cents worth...

What this women is doing, is just appauling! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
....

In our puppy classes, we have what is termed as "cooling down time" (for when the puppies get over excited).

We sit them on our laps, (facing away from us), then gently roll them back, so they are laying on their backs.

Then we calmly give them long strokes along their bellies, while we say in soothing tones
"goooooooood puppy, gooooooooood girl etc". Most of the time, they end up half asleep <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I do puppy massage and handling with my little monsters when I get them, so I guess if a "pin" is similar to that I do it myself.

I dont like what Im hearing.Heres the deal, I dont believe that in order to teach dominance you have to teach submisiveness.Kali, you say that you dont have to force the pup into this position.Are you saying it just asuumes it?Are you saying the pup just submisively rolls over on its back if it believes it has done wrong or you are upset?, and then you reward it?I disagree with this all the way around. That is creating a self fullfilling learned helplessness.Why would you want to do this to a dog?The whole being on the back thing is something Im not going to do.I can teach the dog I am dominant and what is acceptable and not acceptable and that it even has to do somethings even if it doesnt feel like it but I dont want the dog to ever believe that at some point total surrender or rolling over on its back in a total submissive gesture is something pleasing to me or something I may at some point make it do. Like I said I dont believe that showing dominance means I have to teach submissiveness.

I agree with David about using that submissive position, on the back, for dominance issues.

(I think there is a difference between the massage and teaching a pup that you can handle him all over and pinning him down to show you are dominant.)

There isn't any reason to put a dog in that submissive position to help with dominance.

If I can deal with just about the most extreme case for 9 years without it, then anybody could deal with less extreme cases without it.

From the description I wouldn't even call this pining. It doesn't sound like the position is forced to a point that it is disturbing to the dog. It sounds like it is just used as an obedience command, and a useful one at that. Teachng this position and getting the dog used to it aids in physical examinations, and can be used a useful "trick" for demonstrating obedience control over the dog.

With a very dominant dog it probably isn't going to be helpful in establishing control when the dog is testing it's limits. It is going to be difficult to enforce if the dog is being difficult w/o it becoming an "alph roll". Sit and down are going to be much more useful, and easier to enforce w/o becoming a fight beyond a standard correction.