Originally posted by Alan Carlson:
Punishment is really poor dog training or just bad terminology. Consider avoidance training and reinforcements as alternatives. Actually it's neither. Punishment is totally appropriate for behaviors which you wish to permanently inhibit, i.e. sticking his head in the trash, standing on the counters, etc. One iteration of punishment - done correctly (and there's the key, since darn few people have a clue as to the rules of applying punishment - can be just the ticket and with ZERO detriment to the dog's temperament.

Just to be clear, if you look back at my first posts on this thread, you'll see that I don't recommend punishment for this particular behavior either. I'm not saying it's how I would handle it; I'm saying it can be done easily without any negative effects on the dog.

OK after sorting it all out, I think I understand
I didnt want to physically correct him for barking... it wasnt the barking as much as his pushiness. He is just unusually defiant because he is not ready to settle down.
Now that you have mentioned it... in his state of mind... I would have to be harsh to correct him for disobeying commands... and I will not set him up for a sure failure.
Richard said no harm in crating... it would just take longer. Better yet, going right into the crate should let him know even faster... We are done.. relax... and I can let him out after he has been calm for a bit. I just elimainate the opportunity for him to be naughty.

YOU GOT IT! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

hey michelle , saw this thread and thought i'd throw some of my ( limited ) experience in .
i don't know if you have taught brock to " speak ", but this could be your opportunity to turn a negative into a positive . when brock is barking at you , get him on lead , and put a voice command and a hand signal to the behaviour . i use " speak ! " and a yapping hand . praise it up repeatedly , to the point where you can get him to speak on command . when he has the idea , quickly grab his muzzle , gently , firmly closed and then quickly praise him for being a " quiet boy , good quiet " in a calming , soothing tone .
my thinking here is to take behaviours that he has , put a commmand to them , let him know what they are , and praise / reward appropriately .
people often have trouble with the barking ; i feel that if you can learn how to turn them on ( bark ) then you must also learn how to turn them off .
by using positive reinforcement , you can " encourage " him to be a " good quiet boy ", rather than screaming at him to " shut the ***k up " ! better to build bridges , than dig ditches . this way , he will understand what is expected of him ( silence ) because you have taught it to him . somebody , not me , once said : what is not not taught , is not learned . if he learns that being a " quiet boy " is a rewarding experience , then .... teaching him what TO do , is easier than teaching him what NOT to do .
i will end this by saying my experience is with BC's , which can good OR bad , depending which side of you're fence you are on !

I agree that there maybe better ways to handle this at this age, but I think it depends on the attitude/personality of the 6 month old puppy, some of them start taking on dog like attitudes at this age.

Some start lifting there legs, some have both ears standing straight up (if its a GSD or Mal), some seem to know that they are bad asses or will be.

Some will ignore your commands unless compulsion is given. I'm not talking anywhere close to a level 10 correction or 4. Just a little attention getter to reinforce who is really in charge here.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Some 6 month puppies can act like dogs, then at times act like a puppy again. Though they are still puppies they need to be handled a little different then others. Some six month puppies can be 45-55 lbs and look pretty mean to strangers.

Some puppies need to no there limitations a more then others. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Don,
You mentioned that you like to establish yourself as the alpha early with a pup. I'm not sure exactly what you meant by that, as I believe there are many ways to do that without compulsion (up to a point.) I bring it up because I was recently at a training workshop, and the trainer made the comment that true alpha dogs are very rare and by definition, absolutely will not submit to the handler. The other more relevent point he made was if you show your dog at a young age that you are the alpha, then the dog might react by thinking (anthropomorphizing here to make a point)that if you're so tough, why should the dog protect you. It thought his comments were interesting and relevent to dealing with puppy issues.

Chip I know what you are talking about, but I'm not talking about dominating the puppy or dog, but being a strong Alpha leader, mutual respect.

My male dog does not act like he is afraid of me, like I've mentioned if I step on one of his feet he will growl not cower down. When he steps on my bare foot (after I scream) I'll growl.

We have establish a relationship based on trust and care, like buddies. But I don't think this would have been possible if he thought he was calling all the shots.

When I walk out of the door he waits to see if he can go too, (never existing the door way because sometimes he can't). Sometimes I'll say "you can't go" and you will see him go lay down and exhale a deep breath. He wanted to go bad but he respects my decision. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Without this type respect I'd be subject to faith of other people I hear and see that can never open the front door without locking up or leashing their dog. If they don't takes these precautions its a several hours search for the dog or wait until he/she comes back deal. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I won't go though that, now there times where I tell him to down and he will break the down. Most times I'm glad he did because he saw something I did not. I usually will praise him (damn well thank him) for that but he knows when I'm serious and I know when he is serious. Its mutual resepct thing. He has a job to do and I let him do it as long as he doesn't step on my foot/ cross the line. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Lee - You are so analytical nice explaination. I understand things I thought I did better now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Chip's reply - I bring it up because I was recently at a training workshop, and the trainer made the comment that true alpha dogs are very rare and by definition, absolutely will not submit to the handler.

Chip a puppy and human child are kinda alike here do you want to try control and manage a 6 month old puppy or 5 yr. old child or do you want to try to control and manage a 17 yr. old gang banger or now dominate dog, now you got a real fight on your hands. Both now think they are running things as a puppy/child you can shape, guide and mold them.

Guide them young will keep them out of the gallows. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I wish I was analytical like Lee. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
But a man gotta know his limitations. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />