The way the collar was fit has nothing at all to do with how the collar was used!
What I mean to say is that; this is a good example of how not to use the collar. The pinch should not be a crutch for poor training techniques.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

Randy, you are right, but there was a little hi-jack going on in this thread, and that's what I was responding to. (Not the original poster)

My original thought was 'Holy Crap, 15 prong corrections!' That seems like the dog really had not much of a clue what was being asked of it, if it took 15 corrections to get it to respond the way the op wanted it to.

 Quote: Lynne Barrows

My original thought was 'Holy Crap, 15 prong corrections!' That seems like the dog really had not much of a clue what was being asked of it, if it took 15 corrections to get it to respond the way the op wanted it to.

This is what I was thinking when I first read the thread but was unsure. Thank you Randy and Connie for stepping in and identifying the issue as such, as opposed to an issue with non-compliance.

Sorry about distracting from the OP with questions about prong fit.

 Quote: randy allen

The way the collar was fit has nothing at all to do with how the collar was used! What I mean to say is that; this is a good example of how not to use the collar. The pinch should not be a crutch for poor training techniques.

After reading the OP, I'm in total agreement with you, Randy. I just clicked on the thread and read the part about collar fit and was responding to that.

OK, before this goes too far I want to clarify. I did NOT stand there and give 15 straight corrections. And also to clarify, I do believe the fit of a collar does make a difference. The proper use/fit of a tool is very important.

I took many different steps in between corrections to get the behavior. I have watched this dog perform the behavior on command for months and I am 150% sure she knows the behavior and in the same environment we were in AND with higher level of distractions than the situation (for both me and the owner).

Would I use an e-collar, yes, and I suggested it.

Because I am confident in the way things went, I'm not going to give a second-by-second run-down of the situation. I will say because now some of this discussion has led to the idea that the hope is I don't offer any suggestions, I can't help but feel some need to defend myself. So here is my minimal defense -

I did not over correct, give confusing commands, expect too much, etc. I DID underestimate the dogs' level of refusal. I DID start level of correction too low.

I would like to follow up with saying the dog is now responding to her owner because she is getting clear yes or no responses from her owner. She also now understands her refusal is unacceptable, and it will be followed by a physical correction, either from a prong or e-collar if necessary.


Thank you for your input.

I was not going to respond because this thread had died down. But if you are going to open it up again, here goes.

Angela,
I wish I had been an attendant at your class. I wish this as I would have set an example by walking out. And I'm willing to bet that the majority of your class would have followed me.

If you are taking responsibility, than you also need to accept responsibility for making a poor choice in a demo dog. You knew that this dog was attending your class because the owner was struggling. Rather than using an appropriate "clean slate" dog to demonstrate how to train a behavior, you chose to use a dog who was known to test and challenge.

In hindsight, if your intention was to train people how to train dogs, than perhaps a less challenging dog should have been used. If your intention was for you and your friend to show off your correction skills, then you made the right choice.

Unfortunately, I have watched others struggle with this same choice many times.

I believe self-reflection is a good thing. Please, in the quiet of your own conscience, be honest in your reflections so that the lessons from this incident are learned. We are surrounded by opportunities to learn, but ego tends to get in the way, and justifications boil forth.

 Quote: angela palance

And also to clarify, I do believe the fit of a collar does make a difference. The proper use/fit of a tool is very important.

I don't think that anyone refuted this. The comment of "the fit has nothing to do with how the collar was used" wasn't an argument against fit being important.

 Quote: angela palance

I DID start level of correction too low.

Aside from the choice of the wrong dog, how many prong corrections at an inadequate level of severity would you say were given before the level was correct?

That is, if five corrections of a too-low level were given, then were there ten corrections of the appropriate level?

I am trying to understand fifteen prong corrections for one demonstration of one command, one dog -- and to be honest, I cannot.

Tsk tsk Angela,
What made you think this line was taken in the hopes you wouldn't respond?
Earlier in the thread you seemed perfectly happy with the answer that you did nothing wrong but have either the wrong size or fit with the collar. Now though when called on the your training methods (or lack of, as the case may be), you take offense. Instead you should be reflecting on what you could have done different.
You set a very poor example for your class. And you should be ashamed of yourself and apologize to the class in writing if necessary.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

Not to mention a humble 'I'm sorry' to the poor dog and owner.