The CONCEPT of sch tracking and AKC tracking is very similar, but in execution, they are worlds apart. AKC judging is so liberal tht it literally is "find the glove and you pass". They can run, literally run, with their head straight up in the air, leave the track by a LOT more than a leash length, meander, wander, etc etc but as long as they get to the end, they pass. On a TDX, a total goof-off isn't going to make it to the end cuz the track is difficult, but plenty of dogs who are just out for a walk have passed their TD.

You can't compare the precision necessary to score well in Schutzund with scoring in AKC . .OK. .maybe identical is the WRONG word.

JEESUUUSS. . .

You should be training for both the same way, is that better? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

The AKC is a pass/fail, the SchH tracking portion is assigned points - that's the major difference between an AKC TD track and the SchH I track.

For these posters that keep adding that judging is " find the glove and pass" I would ask - what was the last year that you recieved an AKC tracking title? Ya'll are passing on incorrect information there. Yes, judging is more liberal, a dog can be air scenting and pass an AKC test. But to say that a dog can go off a track more than a leash length is simply incorrect - the AKC rules clearly state that's a failure.

A TD track, the basic one is 440 to 500 yards in length. It has a minimum of 3 turns and up to 5 turns are allowed. It is aged anywhere from 30 mins to 2 hours.
The AKC regulations clearly state that :"Judges must never pass a dog which has not met the minimum requirements of following the test track unaided and finding the article(s). If the dog is not considered to be tracking by the judges it shall not be passed, even though it has found the article or articles _ I just lifted that quote out of the tracking regulation manual.
I lay tracks for the AKC tracking field rep, he lives 15 miles from me. I interact with many of the upper level trackers in AKC and I have been considering becoming an AKC tracking judge- the reason I don't become one is that it would eat up my weekends and my SchH would suffer because of it. But I'm pretty sure that my knowledge is up to date here, as I am included in most of the judges discussions.
People posting an uninformed opinion and passing it off as fact gets kinda old here. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Will, I agree gettinga TDX is not a walk in the park. I attended a AKC Tracking event a few months back. I too was under the asumption that it would be easier. From what I saw it wasn't.

I do think that SchH tracking the dogs show much, much more drive in their work. The only GSD their worked the track as he would a SchH track, nose down, steady pace. This was a SchhH3 FH GSD.
The start was his failing in this event. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
I've tracke dwith this GSD many tracks and I thought that it would be a breeze. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Trackers laid the track in uneven terrian, The part that ws most different was the start. The turns I wittness were not all 90 dgress turns. These dogs work for the title.

On a side NOTE: -1- Border Collie(spelling) and -1- Cocker Spaniel completed the Track to obtain their title. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> That really suprised me. There was another small bred that I didn't reconigize.

I prefer SchH Tracking oveer AKC. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Just cuz they don't agree with YOU doesn't make the opinions uninformed. It's great if the judges you have seen have stuck to the rules; the judges I have seen absolutely have not by any stretch of the human imagination. I'm not saying there aren't dogs out there that are tracking nicely in AKC; but I've witnessed some "tracking" that, pure and simple, looked like the dog had no more idea of what it was doing than if you took it for a walk in a field looking for butterflies. Dogs who trotted and loped left and right of the track, at times leaving the track by over 50 feet, handlers literally running to keep up, and the judges being totally silent and just giving the dog time to see if he would wander back in the right direction. And they all passed. And this wasn't just one team, nor one competition, nor one team of judges.

Butch, I agree with ya - I *much* prefer SchH tracking! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
And Lee, if what you saw was true - report the incidence to the AKC. What the judges did was not to standard and they should be censored. Let us know what the AKC follow up to your report is, I'd be interested.
And I looked in my training log- I've been a track layer, participent, or observer in 21 AKC tracking trials in the past 4 years. Lee, we don't live that far from each other, it's possible that we have been at tracking trials at the same time in the south east. And I have yet to see the behavior that you've mentioned end up with a passing score. Three months ago in Oconee County, GA - a TDX trial with 6 dogs had only 1 pass. I laid half the tracks and we had 3 judges as one judge was an apprentice. A SchH dobe was the passing score <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This post isn't about AKC vs schutzhund tracks, but the akita thing...
I have an akita/chow bitch. I bought her for schutzhund. My competition dreams were sorely disappointed for the past 6 years. She's a fabulous house dog. She does great obedience. She can track, but it depends on the day. She has NO prey or food drive. She will definitely bite in defense. In short, she had no hope of a title. Her very best work today comes out of jealousy, when she sees me working the young guy-then she comes out and does her thing at her best, even to grabbing the sleeve. The d*** dog KNEW what I wanted all along-she just doesn't FEEL like doing it.
Now I have a young working bred GSD, and finally I see what it takes to have a prospect in the sport. I'm with VC and those who say, get a dog from a breed that has proven itself in the sport.

Good point Alex.

There comes a point when deciding what you are going to do with your dog where you have to decide what the dog can do. The other method is to choose the dog for the purpose. The prime down fall for most people is they decide on a breed and then try and "force" the dog in to their life style.I can't tell you the number of people that come to me wanting me to find them a dog. The first question I ask is "What do you want the dog for?" The most common answer starts with the breed they desire. When pressed, most will describe how they want the dog to fit in to their life, and lo and behold the breed they have selected just doesn't fit.

If you already have a dog, getting an evaluation of the dog for training possibilities is a good idea. There is no reason to use a "learner" dog that you already have to learn training techniques and types of training that is available. But if you don't already have the dog and have a purpose in mind, you will be much happier and have a much better experience. Find someone with experience with many breeds and describe, as specificly as possible, what you want from a dog. Not just "I want a dog for SchH", but "I want a dog for SchH that can live in the house and get along with children, won't be overly defensive at the door, won't be barking constantly....." There are breeds that can fit almost any need. If you go to someone that has only dealt with one breed they are going to feel that breed is the best. If they are experienced with many breeds and have no vested intrest in the purchase, they are gong to be able to provide a better evaluation. In addition make sure they train in the area you are interested in. Often they will be wiling to go and help select a pup. They can't/won't, communicate to the breed what your exact desires are.

i've been sitting on the side of this thread , which started out as a discussion regarding the suitability of an AKITA for schutzhund SPORT , then saw it turn into a pi$$ing match of AKC vs. SCH . i wasn't going to participate until i saw my breed (BC ) getting dissed . believe me , you should not be at all surprised by the tracking ability of this breed . given an early start ( 12 weeks ) and careful supervision to discourage animal interest , scout never failed to impress me with his abilty. i should mention we are tracking through drive for SAR purposes ( not a sport ) . we have been validated by the RCMP , and when you impress those guys , you've got something !
back to the back initial question ; go ahead and spend all the time and energy you want on that AKITA , ignore all the naysayers and keep plugging along , learning all you can .
reminds me of a friend of mine who spent six years trying to validate a spitz breed for Canadian Avalanche Rescue Dog Association validation ( also a RCMP validation ) . by the time he got that 70%er through the dog had hit retirement age ! next year he showed up with a " tool for the job " and blew through the exams with colors , thanks to all the experience he'd gained . did say he wished he'd done it sooner , tho !
good luck in your endeavors !

Hmmm...actually, I'm going to back track a little on what I said about breed suitablity after I remembered a border collie named Lugie from AZ.
This little guy was in the very first HOT trial, handled by a nice lady whose name I forgot. It had a SchH III title and altho it didn't weight much, it had the fastedt blind search that I've ever seen. It was also a credible threat in the blind, so I think it deserved that title.
If someone asked me 15 years ago if a border collie would ever get a title in SchH, I would have laughed out loud - but I would have been wrong.
Of course, BC's regularly score well in both Obd and tracking, so they have 2 out of the 3 needed abilities already done- it was just a matter of finding the right dog/handler combo to get over the hump of protection training to allow BC's to join the SchH ranks, no matter how rare it occurs.
Maybe there is that truely amazing Akita that has all three drives present to allow it to be titled. We will see - maybe I'll be proven wrong again! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />