Quote: Jennifer Lee

Your right that I was using it as a bribe, but frankly I was ok with that in this situation with this particular dog.

It already worked once when he charged out between my legs into the front yard and started to do the nanny nanny boo boo you cant catch me routine.

I opened the car door, called him, and he came running like he was shot out of a rocket!

Right, I too would be happy to have that ace up my sleeve. For training, though, rewards are the way to go, I think.

In order to change that from a bribe to a reward would you just call him to you using the normal command then load him and go for a short ride when he gets to you?

 Quote: jennifer lee

In order to change that from a bribe to a reward would you just call him to you using the normal command then load him and go for a short ride when he gets to you?

Essentially, yes. That is, I would make sure to use the recall for every car ride that's going to happen anyway, and I might even include "extra" car rides in my bag o' rewards. It would certainly reinforce the "recall is good for me!" perception in the dog's mind.

Continuing with the car ride idea (I hope I'm not hijacking here), but Mimi knows 'go bye bye' = car ride.

In incorporating the recall with the car ride, should I mark and reward as well as the car ride?

'Go bye bye' is actually a separate command.

Edited by Nora Ferrell (09/18/2009 05:11 PM)
Edit reason: proof read

The everyday recall for me is a little different from many other commands. Even the formal recall is different. That is, my everyday recall isn't something I'm shaping to be performed in a specific way.

While I am still training it and marking each time, then yes, I'd mark and reward in a way that "fills" the marker, which the car ride might not do unless you were standing right by the open car door ready to jump in. You know? I mean, I don't want to give an empty marker, and the length of time it takes to get into a car and get going might well break the connection for the dog between marker and reward.

But then later when I have started to randomize the markers for the behavior, not marking every single time with my reserved marker word (or clicker), then the car ride would definitely be a great result that comes from recall compliance.

Hard to explain ....

That said, what's the dog's expected behavior for a "go bye-bye" command?

 Quote: Nora Ferrell

... 'Go bye bye' is actually a separate command.

BTW, reading all these recall comments is wonderful. There really is no other command that has the importance of the recall, IMHO.

And looking around, it's pretty darned easy to see a zillion owners who have failed miserably at teaching it, with dogs who range from totally ignoring it to actively starting a game of "chase me."

'Looking around' Connie,
I'd say 80% of the dog owners haven't even taught the dog it's name much less a recall.

Randy

eta,
And 50% of them don't even carry leashes!

 Quote: connie sutherland

Why would she perceive the reeling as prelude to punishment?

I spend a couple of days thinking: initially when I first got her, "come" and "come here" were preludes to fear response. So, I didn't use them, and used a different word. Then, with her physical problems, recall was put on hold, and I havent' really worked with it. But, the full answer, I got impatient with the recall and she perceives it in my tone of voice and stance. My fault for trying to train when I am tired or irritated from work. I do have patience with teaching her to be non combative with me touching her, but I am impatient with the recall. Sucks for her, I know. Will be changing that! No training when irritated or short of time. No training unless it can be fun for her and me.

 Quote:

I really really do not want the dog to view the recall as optional, which would be the case if not complying allows the dog to do what she wanted to do, which is stay where she is.

Aren't you teaching her that if she does not come, then no problem because you will go to her?

Yes ma'am, thinking about it that way, I sure am. I reward non compliance.

 Quote:

Maybe the challenge to address is why she would view a reeling in as a bad thing. For me, it's very very calm and matter-of-fact. It just means "you will come to me when I call." No correction beyond the reeling and no comment (or reward).

Ah, again, body language and attitude from me. I don't punish her physically, but for her, irritation and impatience on my part brings on "punishment" , so its my fault she perceives reeling as punishment. Abuse isn't just physical or shouting, but attitude.<---in our case, anyway.

 Quote:

The other challenge I might see here is that if this is commonly recurring, I might back way up to the short distance and start over until I had 100% compliance without distraction or distance. My goal is to make the reeling-in a very rare necessity.

Agreed. A new training plan, new attitude, and new word.
Thanks for asking the right questions and making me think and peel back the excuses.
I hope this isn't perceived as a highjack. I felt I needed to ask the question and answer yours.

I doubt that Marvin (O.P.) would think this was a hijack.

When I say that the recall is fun to teach, I really mean it. It's fun because the teacher is showing the dog the wonderful stuff that comes from compliance.

So not only do I never start any kind of training session when I'm crabby, and make each session short enough for both of us to want more, but I also make sure to constantly use the other end of the recall training: remembering to use the recall word for every single good thing that was going to happen anyway. Make a rock-solid association between your recall and stuff the dog loves. If I am one room away and happen to be near a dish of food rewards, why not call the dog and mark and reward compliance?

Of course not every recall forever will end with a party, but they do while I am making the habit ingrained. And I still mark and reward randomly, even after the dog's recall is solid (all commands, actually).

Of course, other folks train other ways, and other ways work, too. I like this way for the everyday recall, and so do the dogs, but most important is that it's successful for me.

Don't forget that it's always OK to start over with a new command word if you feel that the old one is tainted.

I just wanted to say what a difference it made for us when I changed the command.

Come had turned into me repeating myself, and then getting angry, and him thinking it was all great fun to play catch me if you can. Literally, if we were outside, I would say come and he would start prancing around and play bowing.

Changing the word allowed me to totally start over, and re-teach it correctly without any of the baggage and previous bad training.