Another vid of the same dog_

http://shkola-orlova.ru/view/129f6e0e28ec482723e4fd690a78433c.xhtml

Do you have any idea of the time line between the vids?

Which one was done before the other?

I'm pretty sure it was later, but I'll try to find out. It may say on the vid but my Russian is waaay rusty!

There are some points missed is discussion on the video. The fact that a decoy used a "helper" correction on the dog..or attempted to is not really a problem. Practical dogs have been trained with helper corrections for ages. See Konrad Most's book. in fact it promotes some aspects of practical work that are very difficult to produce without it and is a portion of virtually all practical training using the B&G.

The thing to look at is first, the decoys timing was uneducated at best, plain stupid at worst. The dog had become insecure, at the moment he made contact with the decoy's sleeve. Time to stop and start over, coordinate with the handler or rethink the way the training is going.

The chase the weapon hand theory....not a good one. For years some police organizations promoted this approach and couldn't explain what really was happening on actual captures. It just didn't work. Now lets go back to K. Most, he had it right many moons ago. If you have to deal with a weapon, avoidance is best, most away from it not to it. Now lets look at Most's credentials, he is known as the father of the modern police dog,began many military and police dog programs, he also was involved in the largest study on tracking dogs ever conducted, he also set up the standards for hunting dogs in Germany. Today in police service we do not see this sort of training Most was doing, due to a variety of non-dog training issues that have come up. Maybe it is too bad as I still believe it would be a viable approach to most applications patrol dogs face.

It is important in the training of dogs we do not fall into using human thought processes to evaluate canine thought processes. If we look at decoy corrections as some how wrong based on the way we feel, we miss the point. Again K. Most was adamant about this in all dog training.

Thanks for posting the other vid. Kind of clarifys some things from the first.
Did you check out the dog's language when the agitator is holding his leash?

I actually used that technique myself earlier in my career - I think it is fine for schutzhund if done correctly, but not using the stick or whip no matter what the timing if you expect the dog to also take hits without flinching.

I would never do anything like that (leash or stick) in PPDs anymore though - wouldnt want the dog to think a hit or anything from the agitator was correction, and for other various reasons. certainly nothing to do with anthropomorphism (sp?). Just found easier ways with less potential problems.

I guess varying opinions here. love the vids, great conversation.

My understanding of the video here second video Is it was shot the same day. The second video shows the first, second and last entry into the blind. The actual bite occurred during the third entry. But, I could be wrong.

"I actually used that technique myself earlier in my career - I think it is fine for schutzhund if done correctly, but not using the stick or whip no matter what the timing if you expect the dog to also take hits without flinching."

Mike, You really don't know what you are talking about here in regards to decoy corrections, their application and use in dog training. Though certainly not as common as they once were in sport and even in service dogs, it is not because they caused flinching, or concern with a stick. It is simply because it is no longer PC and because of the advent of modern e-collars that it has somewhat faded to a supportive technique and not a foundational technique.

sorry for stepping on toes.

I guess I'll agree, whipping dog and hitting dog with stick by the agitator for not outing, is a good technique - not likely to cause problems more than newer techniques.

Do you recommend this for PPDs too? Your input and kniowledge appreciated. I am always willing to learn, and would hate to think I've been doing everything all wrong.

Mike,
You insult me. The stick is much older than either you or me, or the two of us together. Do you think that for years and years it just didn't work and no one noticed??

Kevin,

Sincerely sorry I insulted you. I just dont think it is the BEST way thats it. I work with far more insecure dogs than the dog in the video, but you will not find them lifting a paw at the agitator like in the second video and if I'm working them for just sport, you will not finding them transfering onto the agitaors arm coming down to correct them. Even if the handler or agitaors timing is off like the guy in the video - you generally wont get as severe a problem as what you see in that video.

I have respect for the origins of bite training. but, i also believe it evolves. If i was on a stranded island with nothing but a stick to train a dog i might do it that way - but my club members arent going to be having nearly as much fun if i am whipping their dogs as a CORRECTION when i dont have to.

Not sure why you got so upset as to say i dont know I'm talking about. I'm not exactly a beginner - i do have my own credentials too and a pretty good reputation in my area and an A plus rating fron the BBB training dogs full time professionally since 1998 (and non-professionally since 93)

To be honest it kind of turns off the fun of posting when I get basically attacked and not respected for voicing my opinion respectfully. I dont think any one on this board thinks I'm just posting jibberish. But, if there is some kind of unwritten rule about having a different opinion than the moderaters i wish someone would have informed me. I guess for now I will give the board a break, no one is here to see an argument - and i sure dont want to get kicked off.

Again, sincerely sorry if i insulted you. Not my intentions...maybe I'm just insecure like the malinois too ...