Quote: randy allen

I'd throw any and all lists away.
I'd go spend some time with some dogs.
That way I could put my own subject attitude to the task and use my own vocabulary.

Does anyone know what intinctive intelligence is?

Yes, an example would be the beagle's hunting of rabbits. The terrier's digging after small critters. Not all beagles are as good at following a rabbit trail, even though it's instinctive. So the ones who are better, the author considers to have more instinctive intelligence. Myself, I would say there are two things that determine which dogs, of the same age and experience, are better at following a rabbit trail. Scenting ability is one, but more important would be the hunting drive. So again, I don't agree with the author.

 Quote: Melissa Thom

So Jose, If you already knew the answer why did you ask our opinion?

Personally I think it's a waste of time to compare breeds like this. Picking the right dog is far more complex than which one is most intelligent.

I absolutely agree. I have read the book and the author's intelligence list is basically based on obedience and how quickly various breeds learned obedience exercises. Naturally, based on this, your sporting, and many herding/working breeds (those bred to work closely with a handler) will come out on top as most intelligent. But not all breeds (think terriers, hounds, and even some of the working/herding breeds) were bred to work independently.

Personally, I wonder where some of the so-called most intelligent breeds based on obedience would fall if the test was based on something else such as hunting ability, or even just plain old problem solving.

 Quote: jose miguel gome

The author divides the kinds of canine intelligence into 3 basic cathegories: intinctive intelligence, adaptative intelligence and obedience/working intelligence.

That list it's only about the obedience/working intelligence. It does not consider the other types. Just the trainability.

The way the author made the study seems very well planned and with lots of data from american and canadian obedience trials and lots of experts opinion.

When the book first came out I bought it and read it a couple of times. It was a highly discussed book. Was very happy that I owned the #2 dog (poodle) and still do However, when you think about it, the breeds most likely to be competing in obedience in greater numbers, going to classes, etc. are those top dogs. Not to say the others are stupid, just that their intelligence quotients are rated on a different scale, the way they work with/without people is different, etc., and they are not seen as often in the obedience circles.

I'm pretty sure Stanley Coren did not intend for people to get so focused on "The List". Some dogs are specialists and hard-wired for certain things, some dogs are more all-arounders and seem to pick up things or adapt much easier.

What I have learned from others, this board and other lists I belong to is that all dogs can learn if you find the right motivator. A more proficient trainer might be able to put that OTCH on a beagle, while someone might stuggle to get a CD on a golden. And there are dumb blonde goldens and smart beagles. Each dog is an individual.

 Quote:

Lets say i want to be an obedience competitor with a great dog at learning new commands. Having that in mind, is this list a good help or should i look somewhere else in order to choose the right breed?

In that case you need to look at dogs, talk to owners/breeders/handlers about the +/- of their breed. You need to observe the breed itself to see if it's a good fit for you and your training style.

I have Border Collies (#1 on the list) and they can pick up words/commands extremely quickly. Doesn't mean that a random individual is going to be able to take the a BC and finish it to an obedience championship. Smart and a quick learner means the dog can also pick up the wrong thing quickly. Some breeds a bit further down the list are much more forgiving of handler error and therefore easier for some individuals to train.

I've also noticed that a person tends to get what they expect and those expectations can be self-fulfilling. Get a breed in the top 5 and you expect great things so you train that way. Get a breed that ranks 35-40 and your expectations are lower and you are already limiting your dogs potential.

Speaking of problem solving intelligence, I think this beagle proves that generalizations are rarely correct

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbTYCaYij_U

 Quote: ingrid rosenquist

Speaking of problem solving intelligence, I think this beagle proves that generalizations are rarely correct

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbTYCaYij_U

that's a perfect example why lists can be flawed.

My Roxie is an escape artist. the only thing that works is making her kennel her "house" and fixed scheduled excercise/play and feeding times. sometimes I wonder who's got who trained

The video posted by Ms. Rosenquist is a sample size of 1. How does that disprove a list that could be a sample size of 1000s?

Give me any Blood Hound and I'll guaranty you that dog's obedience to it's work will be a thousand times better, and maybe more, than any Sheltie or poodle in the world for the work/obedience in the field it's bred for.
Where do you think a sheltie would rate in the bloodhounds world?

Apples and oranges. It's some chosen test criteria the author decided on. It is not a fair review of the dog world by any means.

Hmm, I didnt think of that. I was just going to say, because it does.