thank you Anne honestly I think that was the most helpful response out of all this. Randy I dont claim to be an experienced trainer in schutzhund or civil work. I know trainers that have trained 35 years and have trained hundreds of police dogs that could give you a arguement on this that would make you look stupid.

 Quote: Debbie Dibble

.... I know trainers that have trained 35 years and have trained hundreds of police dogs that could give you a arguement on this that would make you look stupid.

I doubt that a lot. But aside from that, it's so counterproductive. An argument on what?

This could actually be a good thread.

your right it is counter productive because everyone is entitled to their opinion. I know if you talk to the old time civil trainers they will tell you they dont do any schutzhund work. Tell me if there is not any difference in training or methods why do they state this. This whole debate connie is over me saying that alittle different methods are used to train a civil trained dog then a schutzhund trained dog. Didnt know there was going to be people out for blood cause of it. I think ann said it best, I think that a civil trained dog is harder core and has something in them that others dont. Ive never seen a shutzhund dog tear a car door handle off trying to get to the bad guy or jump off a 2 story building on a attack,but seen civil trained dogs that would do it.

Tut tut Debbie,
It's very possible (actually more then possible)someone with decades of experience could make me look stupid.......been there, done that.
Shrug, it's a learning thing. Ya know?

Now, can we get back to my original questions?
Please.

Hmmm.. very interesting thread... I had a chance to work training Police dogs.. way back in the 70's.. And now recently I have become a student of Schutzhund... Very different, but then the times and training techniques have changed for everything... one major difference I could add would be, police dogs were taught to run into gun fire and grab the gun.. Schutzhund dogs are trained to ignore the gun fire.. In Schutzhund, the arm has been the target.. With Police dog training,we started the dogs all tied to posts and agitate them with burlap sacks, and play tug when they bit the burlap. Then a leather arm was under a bite suit and the dog was taught to bite whatever he got to first..The helper would try and get the arm to the dog first. We always loved "sure arm dogs" and when training the bite, the helper would scream and hit the dog to simulate a real situation for the dog.. In Schutzhund, I haven't seen that done..What I have learned so far is that in Schutzhund you want the dog to be calm when he bites.. Police dog training was the opposite.. but.. I am a novice and love learning new things, so this is my 2 cents worth.. if it is even worth that.. (:

randy no matter how I answer you its not going to be good enough.I really dont know what your exact question is.Do you want a exact method that a specific trainer uses? or Are you just trying to annoy me? I'm really not sure, talking to you is kinda like beating a dead horse. In all sincereity my heart goes out to that officer his k-9 and their family.

Excuuuse me!
I'm outta here.

Perhaps though you could answer the same questions from others?

 Quote:

I dont remember if in tug if you let the dog win to build its confidence, and after dog has got prey ofject which i,m using orbie ball to build focus,if you wait til dog loosens grip on it then take it,or to start with the outs.

 Quote:

I answered my question. I found the reading in Ed's basic bite training vidio. I forget that most of you are in to the Schutzhund training, I like to do civil work, which call for different techinques.

What answer did you find and how is it specific to tapping into that civil aggression your talking about?

the answer i found was to make the dog ouse the orbie ball and to immediately proceed with the prey object to let the dog know that the game doesnt end with him letting go. i know this is mainley being used to build prey drive,dog learning focus and control. this is basic drive building and foundation. I didnt say that this specificley was to tap in to civil agression. I can tell by her prey drive that she has potential but shes young so I dont know where eles that is going to lead.When I get to that point I will take her to a professional. Although I can say I havent seen any one around here in Schutzhund training use a orbie ball and do this specfic excercise. But I have seen a civil dog trainer use it. just a observation, I'm not saying their is a connection

 Quote: debbie dibble

On civil training they wear a whole bite suit because the dog is not sleeve trained, they use a different stick on civil, that makes more noise, the dogs are learned to be more alert to signs of danger.

Debbie,
Neither the wearing of a bite suit nor the use of a different stick makes training anymore "civil".

I'm thinking that you're confusing training methods ( and for your information, both clacker sticks and bite suits are used in PSA or a variety of different Ring Sports, which are exactly that - a *sport* )
I don't know if some trainer is misleading you into thinking that this type of training is "civil" ( or if you've come to that conclusion yourself ) but I think that you'd be well served by some deeper study of actual canine protection to get yourself on the right track.