Quote: Wendy Lefebvre

.... He's having an issue with dog being pushy and possibly not seeing the owner as a leader. .... If you don't have a 100% recall on your dog you shouldn't be letting them off leash anywhere except in an enclosed area or a fenced backyard.

Probably worth emphasizing.

You know, some of us live in places with about about 100 times less population density than california or any large urban area, and the absolute prohibition on letting a dog run free where we live without "100% recall" (whatever that is) is nonsensical. AM

 Quote: andrew may

Wendy, I think once some "Gee-Haw" work done that skijor is not a recipe for encouraging dominance or a reward for being out in front.

Where in my post did i say EITHER of those things?

I said that for a dog that has little obedience outside of the house and has an issue with pulling should not be introduced to a sport that encourages pulling until he get's the obedience down.

I never once mentioned doing those thing would enourage dominance or be a reward for being out front.

Have you read the original OP's first post, or any of the other's???

 Quote: andrew may

You know, some of us live in places with about about 100 times less population density than california or any large urban area, and the absolute prohibition on letting a dog run free where we live without "100% recall" (whatever that is) is nonsensical. AM

The posts were directed to John, the O.P.

Not that it really matters, Andrew, but the O.P. is indeed in " california or any large urban area," and in fact in a quite an urban area of California. You'll also see in the O.P., you will also see problems with the dog's history of moving-vehicle reactivity.

Why not train the recall first? I consider it the most important command of all. There is nothing whatsoever nonsensical about not letting the O.P.'s dog to run loose without a reliable recall.

OTOH, good advice here :

 Quote: andrew may

... I would play lots of games with toys and use them as positive rewards for good behaviour: for example, have him walk at heel or behind you, mark it, and reward with a ball toss or food. ... I would be slow and cautious in your use of the ecollar. don't use avoidance methods. useful tool for extinguishing behaviours that need to go, in my experience corrected without inducing aggressive response in my cattle dog. ....

Wendy:

I didn't say you claimed those things. They are clearly concerns for this John and his cattle dog though. I was responding to the thread as a whole, which I have entirely read.

I skijor, I have raised a cattle dog, and see no problem doing skijor like activity fairly soon. That's my opinion, and my basis of experience.

Do you skijor?

AM

 Quote:

i will say that with the frisbee and ball playing on line, he is horrible at dropping it when he returns....in the house he drops on command with a ball but when we go outside its like he is so excited all he wants to do is thrash the ball or frisbee side to side (like all dogs do) and wont let go or drop until he's ready for another throw or we grab the prong collar (typically don't actually have to correct but just grab and he drops, backs up and barks for more)

Have you ever tried trading for another toy? It could be that the more you turn it into a big deal, the more it will be a big deal to him. I'd just trade it for a treat or another toy.

 Quote:

we will keep working harder with the heel etc.... if i take a piece of his fav treat and start practicing "heel" and walking etc in the house or outside, he is 100% focused, never goes in front of us and does all his turns awesome....but without food he pays attention to all other things around him I HAVE TO BELIEVE THIS IS A SIGN THAT HE BELIEVES HES ALPHA?????

I'd tend to think that it's more a sign that he doesn't fully understand what all is expected of him. Training with food does not need to involve waving food in front of a dogs face. I start off training a command in a distraction free area. I reward frequently at first, then start rewarding randomly as the dog understands what I'm asking for. When I up the distractions, I up the frequency that I mark/treat a behavior, then gradually switch to rewarding randomly.

For example, with my 13 m/o Border Collie if I'm at home, I'll have her go through a random amount of sits, downs, heelwork before I reward. I've just started taking her to a local community college to train before and after classes. When I'm there I reward just about every right behavior as it's so much more distracting to her. I'll gradually start spacing out rewards as I see that she is more comfortable focusing in that environment.

For the biting on the leash, I'd try teaching him a default "chill" behavior, such as a down that is incompatible with his crazy leash behavior. I have such a down on my 5 y/o Border Collie - he lays down with his head flat on the floor. I trained it indoor with no distractions and rewarded it heavily until he started offering it when he was begging. I moved up to higher distractions outdoors and gradually worked up to his trigger - other excited dogs. Each step of the way I rewarded heavily until it became automatic for him. It does take a bit of time, but now when I see that the situation may be a bit much for him, I can ask for the down he gives it to me and is able to refocus on me instead of the stimuli that used to set him off.

Connie:

I didn't suggest at any point, that the OP let his dog run loose without a reliable recall in california. I suggested he use skooter or skior: ie ski with the dog physically attached to his person by a harness and line. I do not know why you suggest otherwise.

I responded to an absolute statement, endorsed by you, in relation to the general proposition that under no circumstances should a dog without a 100% recall be loose outside of a fenced yard.

This is often wise but not of universal application.

I fully endorse training recall. I myself use ecollar with my dog offlead, when required. At no point did I suggest not training for recall.

this is offtopic.

John, good luck with Chewy! sorry for the deviation here.

" .... I responded to an absolute statement, endorsed by you, in relation to the general proposition that under no circumstances should a dog without a 100% recall be loose outside of a fenced yard."

The post was made in reply to the O.P.

However, I do endorse any suggestions that the recall be reliable before the dog is allowed to run loose. I would say that the exceptions are few enough that this statement is appropriate here on this public board.


"this is offtopic."

It is indeed.

John, have you tried two-ball, as Mara mentions?

Also, the suggestions in the same post about very gradual upping of the distractions on the walk -- great detail there.

Someone mentioned starting the walk after a tiring game at home -- I've had good success with that with reactive excitable dogs.

Tiring the dog out with a game of fetch before a walk worked great for me.

Tucker also has a bad fascination with moving lights & shadows and he was a horror on walks when i first got him as he would re-act to anything flying by or if we walked at night, the car headlights would set him off.

Tiring him out a bit before we left helped alot with those problems.
He had an easier time focusing on me and what i wanted him to do, and didn't slip into the "red zone" as quickly as he would if just started out on a walk straight away.