 Re: would like your opinion on this training theory
[Re: vincent mancuso ]
#266598 - 02/25/2010 03:22 PM |
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i really dont want to drag that poor guy into this pit of vipers,, lol
Vincent, I was formulating a calm, informative response to your question until I hit this.
You knew before you posted the type of response your query would elicite or you would have been happy to post the "trainers" contact information. You knew that the majority of people on this web site would find this "method" bordering on abuse and yet you only want warm fuzzy input, and then have the audacity of criticising folks for giving you the advice you requested.
You came to the wrong place expecting people to not respond with passion about the welfare of dogs. I respectfully suggest you search elsewhere for the type of "non" advice you seek. You are not going to find it here.
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Re: would like your opinion on this training theory
[Re: Anne Jones ]
#266599 - 02/25/2010 03:22 PM |
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Re: would like your opinion on this training theory
[Re: Barbara Schuler ]
#266600 - 02/25/2010 03:31 PM |
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i really dont want to drag that poor guy into this pit of vipers,, lol
Vincent, I was formulating a calm, informative response to your question until I hit this.
You knew before you posted the type of response your query would elicite or you would have been happy to post the "trainers" contact information. You knew that the majority of people on this web site would find this "method" bordering on abuse and yet you only want warm fuzzy input, and then have the audacity of criticising folks for giving you the advice you requested.
You came to the wrong place expecting people to not respond with passion about the welfare of dogs. I respectfully suggest you search elsewhere for the type of "non" advice you seek. You are not going to find it here.
I'm sorry if you are offended by my viper statement it was followed with a lol,, as it was a joke
i had no idea that i would get only negative responses from my post, i really am here to learn, i dont think this training is abusive as far as i understand it,, i was wondering if any one with more experience than my own 4 years of training protection dogs had any real knowledge on how this method works, from direct experience, again just saying you dont agree with it is not constructive, and trying to invite me to leave this forum when i believe in and am grateful for everything Ed has informed me about threw his dvds and the resources on his web site, is not very helpful
thank you
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Re: would like your opinion on this training theory
[Re: vincent mancuso ]
#266601 - 02/25/2010 03:34 PM |
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is a protection dog never put under stress in training isn't any progressive training program a response to a progressive stressor
Yes,they are. But not in anyway that you described. My female is a very hard, tuff girl & has had alot of pressure put on her during PP scenarios (just as much as the males) & she has not change in her work ethic from day one. Stress is added gradually over time & within the contex of the work. The decoy is the one that increases this stress & pressure in the work. It has nothing to do with an obsticle course or holding a dog upside down to gain confidence or handle stress. BTW you can pick my dog up to shoulder height while on the sleeve or suit & she will not let go. I would not risk injury to my dog by picking her up by one leg & hold her upside down to try to proove anything. It's just stupid & unnecessary. JMO
MY DOGS...MY RULES
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Re: would like your opinion on this training theory
[Re: Anne Jones ]
#266602 - 02/25/2010 03:37 PM |
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Reg: 02-22-2010
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is a protection dog never put under stress in training isn't any progressive training program a response to a progressive stressor
Yes,they are. But not in anyway that you described. My female is a very hard, tuff girl & has had alot of pressure put on her during PP scenarios (just as much as the males) & she has not change in her work ethic from day one. Stress is added gradually over time & within the contex of the work. The decoy is the one that increases this stress & pressure in the work. It has nothing to do with an obsticle course or holding a dog upside down to gain confidence or handle stress. BTW you can pick my dog up to shoulder height while on the sleeve or suit & she will not let go. I would not risk injury to my dog by picking her up by one leg & hold her upside down to try to proove anything. It's just stupid & unnecessary. JMO
so to put the dog in a stress full position during protection training is ok but to put environmental stress in a OB session is undesirable?
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Re: would like your opinion on this training theory
[Re: vincent mancuso ]
#266607 - 02/25/2010 03:55 PM |
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Reg: 12-23-2008
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Loc: Toronto, ON, Canada
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The way you described the training it sounds as though stress is the goal, forcing a dog into avoidance where he learns to turn pressure off by compliance. Much like yank and crank (another avoidance training method) i think this does the opposite of make the dog confident.
Stress for a protection dog on the sleeve is added once they have learned many times they can win in this situation. stress is added in small doses and the dog is still successful (wins the prey.) so the dog remains confident because he has been successful in the past. there is a huge difference between that and stressing the dog till he "refuses" as you said
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Re: would like your opinion on this training theory
[Re: Robert Kirkwood ]
#266608 - 02/25/2010 04:01 PM |
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Reg: 02-22-2010
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Loc: ontario, canada
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The way you described the training it sounds as though stress is the goal, forcing a dog into avoidance where he learns to turn pressure off by compliance. Much like yank and crank (another avoidance training method) i think this does the opposite of make the dog confident.
Stress for a protection dog on the sleeve is added once they have learned many times they can win in this situation. stress is added in small doses and the dog is still successful (wins the prey.) so the dog remains confident because he has been successful in the past. there is a huge difference between that and stressing the dog till he "refuses" as you said
The way you described the training it sounds as though stress is the goal, forcing a dog into avoidance where he learns to turn pressure off by compliance. Much like yank and crank (another avoidance training method) i think this does the opposite of make the dog confident.
Stress for a protection dog on the sleeve is added once they have learned many times they can win in this situation. stress is added in small doses and the dog is still successful (wins the prey.) so the dog remains confident because he has been successful in the past. there is a huge difference between that and stressing the dog till he "refuses" as you said
from what i understand the dog is not forced into avoidance that would hurt trust not build it, so if this form of training is not within your personal experience and not fully understood by you, you cant give me any new information, so please any one with direct experience with this type of training please feel free to post
thank you
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Re: would like your opinion on this training theory
[Re: vincent mancuso ]
#266610 - 02/25/2010 04:04 PM |
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Loc: North Florida (Live Oak area)
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Just out of curiosity does this trainer talk a lot about "natural" drives?
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Re: would like your opinion on this training theory
[Re: Betty Waldron ]
#266613 - 02/25/2010 04:06 PM |
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Reg: 02-22-2010
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Loc: ontario, canada
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Just out of curiosity does this trainer talk a lot about "natural" drives?
no, what is that?
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Re: would like your opinion on this training theory
[Re: Robert Kirkwood ]
#266614 - 02/25/2010 04:12 PM |
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Stress for a protection dog on the sleeve is added once they have learned many times they can win in this situation. stress is added in small doses and the dog is still successful (wins the prey.) so the dog remains confident because he has been successful in the past. there is a huge difference between that and stressing the dog till he "refuses" as you said
DITTO. Confidence is something that develops with success. When the dog wins, he/she leans that they CAN win & more confidance builds over time to the point that the dog feels that it can win in ANY situation & goes into confrontation KNOWING & ASURED that it WILL win.
Vincent, you will be hard pressed to find someone here that is training with those methods. Like it was stated earlier, you may be better able to find people using these proposed methods elsewhere.
MY DOGS...MY RULES
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