Philippe,

Another thought.

If you intend to use this dog for personal protection and/or competition now is the time to start taking him to "manwork" classes.

I don't suggest that you engage in the classes until such time as you have some controls through the basic obedience classes, but by taking him and allowing him to see what is happening and experience the excitement that is generated by, and from, the other dogs you will be setting him up well.

Leather collar only, not a choke chain. You don't want him to believe he is being corrected for his excitement.

Regards,

Geoff.

Ok, first off Joy I have ordered your book so I can read the entire thing rather than just an article.
Geoff thank you for your input.
I will be having him evaluated.
Would his behavior not be consitent if he is a shy dog? I ask because this morning I took him to a park he had never been too and placed him in a situation in which I would have expected him to react like he did the other day. he did just the opposite, I was proud of him.
The park we went too is fairly large, there are trail both for hikers and bikers. I concentrated our walk in the forested area of the park. I placed him slightly off the the trail. It did not take long before two bikers came barreling through. He let out a few deep barks at the bikes. He had never seen bikes before then. He spooked slightly, startled is more the word for he could not see them comming up and down the slight hill. Recovered almost instantly and wanted to chase after the bikes (now bark switched to his play high pitch bark). It was not long before more bikes came through. This time his only reaction was to reach the end of his lead (no pulling) and try to get a scent of the bikers. There were also hikers on the trail. No agressive reaction to them. The only reaction from him was more a concentrated stare at bypassers and a sniff of them then anything else.Leach was loose tension and he was forward of me but not close (as in about 5 feet in front of me). I got some of them to pet him and give him treats Some of those that petted him were children. One child even hugged bruno. Included in his experience was the sniffing of a childs bike. He was quite facinated by the bike's scents. I heavily praised him each time he behaved well. Never did I have to give him any correction.
So what is up with this? I placed him in a totally strange environment and off his familliar ground, exposed him to fast moving objects he had never seen yet no agression except for a few deep barks at his first bikes and had him meet various people of all ages.
As for the vet's office visits, he has always been one of the staff's favorites. No agression or fear from the staff or vet. My vet has even offered to keep him at his home if we go out of town rather than at the kennel at the vet office.
At about what age is a GSD able to become protective? Fred Lantings book has picture of a 10 Month old GSD and the newspaper article of how this pup protected his owner and property from burglars (have to look at it again for details but that is what I recall of that picture in his book).

Phillipe,

The more I look at this, and think about it, the more I lean toward a combimation of problems. A lot of what you are seeing at the present time seems to be based on territoriality. In combination with a lack of confidence at home. This can be a real pain later.

I am a little different with my dogs than those that train for Schutzhund in that I expect a higher level of obedience at a younger age than most. At his age most of my dogs have nearly finished with their obedience training. So going back to the question of which tape to get I would get both if you paln to do protection work with this dog, but to my thinking obedience is more important at this point so you can get general control over his behavior.

The other ting I am noticing is that the dog seems to be improving with socialization in new situations. So it sounds like he also needs some more socialization at home. As a lot of people have pointed out at different times here, dogs are poor at making generalizations. He doesn't understand the behavior expected at home is similar or the same as what you expect at the park. So I would do some more socialization at home.

Getting the dog evaluated by a profesional is a good idea at this point. While there are some breed chacteristics, every thing is different with each dog. It is always a good idea to have a profesional look at a dog that you are having problems with since they will look at the dog with an unbiased, and unemotional, eye.

Again, I must disagree w/Geoff. No right thinking K9 trainer tests an 8 mo old pup for K9, it's too much stress on the pup. Now, i really do not want to offend anyone, but Geoff, you are from S Africa and if memory serves, were there not severe criticisms against police dog training methods there about a yr ago? As in the methodology is unsafe and outdated?
I absolutely agree that there is an element of territoriality in some of this pup's behavior, and pups will go thru some nutty phases, but you cannot lose sight of the fact that this pup showed inappropriate defensive aggression toward a lady and a child at only 8 mos of age. This concerns me.
Philipe, for insight into how future patrol dogs are tested (at 18-24 mos), perhaps Lou can post the link to his *Stake out test*. I think you'll see that a weak nerved dog is going to fail w/in the first few mins.
Don't expect complete consistency from this pup. There is no way for you to predict what situations/environments he will find most stressful, this is why they are hi risk for accidental bites. A large open space like a park, esp in daylight would seem less scary from a pup's perspective, I suspect. The fact that your pup recovers quickly is a big plus.
Get an eval at a good Sch club, the TD should know how to read an 8 mo old pup w/out over stressing him. Sch can be a good confidence builder for a dog w/shaky nerves.

Jerri,
Sounds as if you have a vocal pup. At 5-5 mos they can do weird things like that, sort of testing their voices. if he's confident w/strangers, ie not showing aggression or avoidance toward non threatening humans, I wouldn't worry too much.

the area of the part we were in was in the forest with lots of pine trees as in not a large open space. I am going to try him out in another environment and see his reaction. i will try him out on a bridge over water and one that is narrow and swaying slightly. will see how he does

As I said, it's hard to predict what the dog may find unnerving, but getting him out to as many unfamiliar places as you can is the right thing to do.
Do also consider getting an eval by someone *qualified*. That is the hard part, your local obed instructor likely hasn't a clue about all the various forms of aggression. If you have a good Sch club w/in 4 hrs, that would be a good place to take him.

Yes that is exactly what I am going to do. As for the one I am taking him to will be at the local schutzhund club. As for the training director, she has placed 1st in the schutzhund nationals and has placed 2nd and third at others. She is quite blunt and will tell me right off If there is a problem with the pup. She typically will evaluate a new dog comming to the field before she even allows it to be worked. I have seen first hand her ability to take two GSDs severely abused by so called "trainers" and turn them into good working dogs (and earn there schutzhund titles). I do remember these GSDs when they 1st came to the club, they scrared me and I do not want my pup to become one of those type of GSDs. That is the reason you see me spending so much time here and other repectable web boards (plus I am at work and can't work with my pup)
Next week I will also know how his hips and elbows are via preliminary x-rays. I got the pup for Schutzhund and he was a replacement for another GSD that ended up with bad hips. Same warranty applies if he is defective in temperament as it does for hips, elbows etc). BTW he is also the alpha male of the litter. If he is replaced because of temperament (I realize it is way to early to tell what he will turn out to be like)I will still keep him and have him neuthered (has to be before I get a replacement).

Philippe, I did not mean to imply that your dog was a problem with the vet...only that I have seen many like that who are problems.

You know your dog better than anyone else and you may be worried about nothing. While I think you need to continue to work with him on enjoying being around people and to trust them at this point it sounds like you have a great dog!!! I only wish more of the GSD's we see at the clinic were like that. Too many American lines and backyard breeders puppies that come in who are scared to death and will eat you alive out of fear!!! I don't think you have ANYTHING to worry about..just keep doing what you are doing and watch him...you have a good handle on his personality...take advantage of it!!!