Great advice from Anne. I think she is probably right about this being a high-drive, confused dog that isn't necessarily challanging your leadership so much as easily distracted, young and very driven.

The art of the correction is something I'm still learning and thankfully my 11 month old pup isn't this hard. A dog at our Schutzhund club was in a similar situation - he's a very high drive and hard pup with incredibly potential in Schutzhund, but the owner is inexperienced with this type of dog and has had some real troubles. However, he's working through them and travelling to our club to work with the training director and the other members.

One technique that's worked really well is to put a long line onto the prong so that you can handle the dog while a more experienced and stronger handler/trainer can administer the corrections. It helps with the timing and the proper level of correction you need to give. This dog sees these people once a week and not only has the dog made great progress, but the handler also is much, much more adept at correcting and handling his dog now.

A couple of other notes: my 11 month old isn't this hard, but is high drive and I definitely don't give him free run of the house yet. He'd eat my couch- no doubt about it. Segregate him to a small, puppy-proofed part of the house and crate him a bit more. When you take him out, make him work for his toys.

Also, like Anne said, don't expect this type of pup to be an adult just yet. Keep the obedience work very short and as positive as possible. Don't expect him to settle down just yet. It will be a few months before you can do serious, formal obedience work...

Good luck!

--Alan...

Estee,

Do you ever exercise the dog? Sounds like she is wound up, is it because she has no job? Too much drive for you, but maybe it would make a good drug dog. Also are you for real? It is hard to believe you have had six previous Shepherds, but still come across as little or no dog experience.

Brad

Yes, I'm for real. To answer some questions to help sort out some of this stuff. Her energy is extremely high. So high in fact, that I can throw a frisbee in two feet of snow for 45 minutes and she doesn't even pant after I put her in her crate. We have a local GSD club and she goes through every pup and tires them out. When she gets home, I'm not kidding, she TEARS through the family room. I let her do it because its her last burst of energy for the night. Everyone else tells me their dog collapses after the night. I exercise her hard AM , afternoon and PM.
I know it might me hard, but don't look at me as a beginner, or else my problem would have easy solutions. I have a crate. She doesn't have full reign of the house. I have a family room/kitchen area that is gated off from any other areas. This is the only area she is allowed in. I've done all the crate "punishing" for almost one year. It hasn't worked. There was a time whenever she stole one thing, IN THE CRATE. Whenever she put one tooth on us, IN THE CRATE. None of that worked. I ended up having a high energy pup in a crate that was even wilder when I let her out. We pretty much tried all the passive gentle correction stuff on her. The crate is what saves our sanity. Keep in mind, to this day, she has a lead on her at all times. Nothing is left on the floor. Anything she "steals" is from jumping on tables. Dishes, silverware, books, you name it. have NEVER corrected her without giving her praise afterwards. I believe the correction is futile if you don't have immediate praise afterwords. I have two kids and I'm home all day, she gets more attention than most dogs. I'm very affectionate with her, but she has to earn anything she gets. She is never left alone or I would have no worldly possessions.

This is another problem, when she's in class (besides the dog thing last couple of times) she is fine. Her obedience is good except for recall. If I went to a trainer, they would never expect she was a problem because I handle her fine and she is obedienced trained for her age. When I put my arm up, she drops down like a ton of bricks, everytime and does a three minute down, everytime. That's why I don't think she is confused, that's why when she wouldn't go down for me, I knew it was because she didn't want to. A dog that is confused doesn't know the command. I've had a trainer come to my house, she wouldn't calm down long enough to act bad. She was so interested in having company. We did what we could, but she did all her commands, didn't challenge me, didn't steal anything, it really was a waste of money. I've thought about video taping a week with her, then showing it to someone, I think that would be best.

I wish some of you were right and she doesn't have rank drive. I know one thing, she isn't confused, she is very smart and has a temper. Her temper only shows up when I take something away from her or correct her. I'm not her leader, it's that simple, and from what I understand, rank drive dogs challenge you for leadership no matter what you do. That sounds like her to me. Thanks for all your constructive input, I just want to weed out all the "do you do" stuff to be more productive.

I think you guys are missing the big picture here. Forget about “rank” for a minute and how to deal with it. I don’t think it’s a matter of rank anyway. What is this dog used for and what was this dog bred for? I didn’t see any references in Estee’s posts to bite work, yet sounds like this dog was born to bite. To deny this dog her “birth right” is simply wrong. The dog needs an outlet. Sounds like she’s got all it takes to make an excellent sport dog—high prey, fight drive and hardness. Channel this in the RIGHT direction—group obedience classes just won’t cut it for a dog with so much drive. Neither will tons of exercise. This dog needs an emotional release. Anyone who ever trained a high-drive dog in SchH knows that 5 minutes of bitework have a more calming effect on a dog than 2 hours of straight ball chasing.

So my advice to Estee is: either join a biting sport club or give this dog to someone who will use it for what it was bred.

Well it's nice to have a little more detail. Thanks. I agree with Renee that she could use some bite work. I'm not sure I understand what you said about imediate praise after a correction. If I give a correction and the dog then responds with appropriate response then there is praise but I don't just praise because I've just corrected her. Sorry if I misunderstood.

I think Renee has nailed this one.

This dog is too much for you to handle. I would say find someone who is able to channel this dog's natural drive and ability into something positive and let them take the dog. Either that or find a good trainer who will utilize a more positive reward based training system. You continuosly banging heads with the dog is a lose lose situation. The dog has proved that it can handle anything physical you can dish out and continuing on this path will only lead to you or your dog or both of you getting hurt. There are certainly times for physical corrections however it seems like you haven't tried anything remotely positive or reward based.

I agree with those who suggested you find an appropriate trainer for help, someone who understands working dog drive. However clearly you try to describe your situation, you need real help.

Sue

Renee, you were thinking the same thing I was.

This dog sounds very much like the dog I just donated to a police dept. The decision was difficult, but I had gotten her as a family dog to proect and do sport with, and she was TOOOO much dog for that situation.

She is now excelling in police k9 service, and her handler is madly in love with her and she is treated like a queen!!

Estee, my point is that if your dog has more drive than you can manage, and she may be a very serious dog, then put aside your selfish love for her( I don't mean this in a bad way <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) and think of what's best for her.

PM me if you want to know the trainer I used to help me to handle my very serious rank hard dominant kick a$$ bitch!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Estee,

You've gotten some great advice already and I really hope you open your mind and then take it (especially Chuck's) to heart. However, you said:
"I would be very surprised if someone came up with something that I haven't tried. But, please try!"
My 2 cents worth: In all your posts, I haven't heard you state what behaviors you have clearly communicated to your puppy as being acceptable in the house. What is she allowed to do? Or better yet, from your perspective, what is she supposed to do? She is looking for outlets and is met with "crate punishing" which does nothing toward meeting her needs. Your house is a mine field for a curious puppy. She investigates or grabs something to play with and whammo! Have you tried substituting acceptable behaviors when she starts to do something you don't find acceptable? What fun "games" is she allowed to do in the house? Hide and seek for her favorite toy or your kids? Does she have access to appropriate chew toys? Etc. Given that your puppy needs more stimulation, and clearly is confused as to what the rules are, it's totally unfair, IMHO, for you to be physically correcting her when it doesn't sound like you've allowed or taught her alternative behaviors that both you and the puppy find acceptable.

Finally, I realize you are somewhat exasperated with the situation but you need to understand that it's not personal between you and the puppy; She's not laughing at you or taunting you. It's simply about behavior.

She IS too much dog for me, that's why I'm here. One of my trainers was big into the positive training, wouldn't even let me use a prong. He couldn't get her to stop pulling on lead. I think all that positive ONLY training is for normal dogs.

I have in my crate right now the most amazing pup with a sense of smell, sight and hearing that blows all my others away. She is so alert to everything. Watches TV. She'll kill for a ball and will never give up till she finds it. I read what makes a great Schutzhund dog and she possesses every single quality and then some. I've been PM'd by a few people wanting to know her lines. Mother's side: German Shuz.III,KKI, Italian Sieger both grandparents. Father: Show and companian lines.

READ THIS!! My husband just came down while I was writing this and said one of the kids accidently left the gate open tonight and she got upstairs. When he called her she didn't come. He went up to get her and found her ON our bed taking a dump. WOW! I'm sorry, but I had to laugh. How many dogs do THAT!! That's her style. No, we don't let her in our bedroom and yes, she was let out after dinner for her exercise. It's on my husband's side of the bed, he is not happy.

Anyway, yes, I'm holding her back to what she could truly be capable of. I would consider having her with someone that would give her a job, I don't know where to start.