You can disagree if you want to Melissa.
There's a big difference in a dog being a brat and a dog that needs to still be caught even though within a few feet.
For instance do you have to chase your dog to get your slipper back?

A dog should not be hand shy and certainly not at 8 months.
If freedom is of such value then there's a lot more wrong here other then hand shyness.

Anyone that thinks a YOUNG dog's recall is solid, is in for an unpleasant surprize as posters have found.

A dog without a solid recall should always be in a collar that they cannot be slipped out of or a prong with a dd collar or the like on as a backup. NO EXCEPTIONS to this rule. Collars should be checked often to be sure that they are the correct tightness. Also, a long line should be used. If you drop the leash you have a chance to grab onto it before the dog gets away. Much easier than a short 6 ft leash. I would also suggest having treats & or a toy or tug in your pocket at all times, which ever is your dog's favorites to help lure a loose dog back to you. But honestly, your dog should WANT to be with you more than any other place on earth. If not, something is missing in your relationship. I can't even imaging my dogs being hand shy or not wanting to be next to me.

It takes a LONG time in may cases up to 1 1/2 often to even 2 yrs (depending on the dog & amount of training within that time) for an instant solid recall, out in the open & under high distractions, maybe even longer then that depending on the degree of exposure to high distractions.

I think that the reason most people have proplems with this, is that they are in way too much of a rush to have dogs off leash before the dog has EARNED that privilage. Training is not a race to see how fast you can 'train' your dog. Often many of the problems that arise are due to skipping steps in training to 'move it along' for the convience of the owner. At least I see this alot with people that I help train. It takes a ton of work to train a dog to reliability out of the backyard. Many owners loose patience with the amount of time it really takes. Not saying that this is the case here....just stating a fact.

My dogs spend alot of time on long lines, even on long lines when out in the open fields that I train on, even when first on e-collars (as backup). I don't want to chance a dog going weird the first few times loose in the field with an e-collar on. I want to clarify that my dogs are on e-collars when off my property, but they are VERY rarely ever used...they are their as a backup plan, just in case, not as a short cut to or in place of good training.

JMO & experience.

..outstanding post Anne!

I'm finding the process of building Jethro's recall is also a process of building our relationship. He has to WANT to come to me even when I have him on a lead. If he doesn't want to come to me when we are practicing on a lead, he isn't going to do any better once we are not physically attached. My recall attachment is an emotional/psychological connection. Jethro doesn't want to get away from me because he would be lost and lonely without me.

We do practice off leash, but in areas where Jethro is allowed to run as fast and as far as he wants. The funny thing is that he is rarely out of sight, and always comes running back to check up on us. It's as if he has his own invisible fence. We find these walks build our relationship tremendously. And whenever he comes zooming by, we click, and when he stops by for a pit stop he gets a treat.

In the neighbourhood, we build recall on leash - that is - distractions cue eye contact, a click, and a treat. My gosh Jethro's reactivity has gone down so much since I started doing this with him! He is allowed to look at the distractions, that is his cue to look back at me and get a treat.

In the house, I am also building my bond with him, he generally as a leash on (his 'smoking jacket' 6' martingale) with a 20 or 30' training lead attached (my remote control). I have taught him to put his head down to 'Settle' and we are having many fewer incidents of his unwanted barking at life on the streets.

I find all these, and many more, bonding exercises are what build recall with Jethro, beyond the technique taught in obedience class.

I wanted to add & didn't have time....(had to answer the door for a delivery)....

Olivia, I think that you are just really stressed out with all that is going on in your life right now. You seem to have been doing a good job with you dog, from your posts. But is does take alot of work. Having a 2 yr old & a mal is alot. Wait until your child's surgery is over & things calm down before you make any final decisions about whether to keep or rehome the dog. You want to make that decision with sound judgement not in an emotional state of mind in order to figure out what is best for both you & the dog.

Hope all is well with your son.

I will just add that we have also worked with using hunting whistles for recall - and charged them with special treats. When I really need Jethro and Skipper back in an instant, I give a blast on the whistle and they come charging in for their treats.

First off I want to say I am sorry for all of this having been piled on to you in such a short span. As for whining in the crate I have to go with needs more exercise and mental stimulation, which I understand with young children, can be very hard. I have no children at home and my 10 month old GSD and 4 year old border collie demand a lot of my time. I might get away with a couple days slacking but by day three they are driving me up the wall.

As for the bolting issue, I have always had a different take on this. It might come from living in the country and England, but my puppies are off leash probably more than they are on for the first few months they are with me, and they continue to be off leash daily for their whole life. This teaches them that freedom isn't some rare gift, its life and they stay with the pack because they are members of this pack that want to be involved. I think the Michael Ellis way of training also really helps in this because my dogs want to be engaged with me, not anything else. Now my border collie loves to chase small furry creatures and out in the yard alone, does so with great gusto, but out on a walk in the woods, he sticks to about 100 feet of me and while might give chase can be called off with a simple "leave it". The puppy is much the same only tends to stick closer to me and because of his temperament I am sure will at some point need a harder correction (meaning e-collar) than my BC. In a city, town or near a road, I do leash up. I fully understand not everyone is going to agree with my way. There is some risk involved, but to date and with continued luck I have never lost a dog, had one injured or hit by a car, nothing. For me I will take this slight risk, in exchange for having a dog that gets away from me on accident and I can’t get back. I have never had a single issue recalling my dogs, maybe because they have never been corrected after a recall, maybe because I practice calling them to me and letting them go from the time they step foot in my house and maybe because they go out and about everywhere with me so new places and things are not as exciting to them. I do proof both of them with their respective biggest distraction on a regular basis to make those things less of a distraction. My border collie is small furry creatures and my German shepherd it’s other dogs.
Again I respect everyone’s right to train and maintain their dogs as they do, I am just sharing what has worked for me for all my years of dog ownership and what I will continue to do for as long as I own dogs.
On a side note, I do not consider every breed as suitable for this type of upbringing. If I had a husky or a greyhound, I would not at all let them off leash in anything but a fenced in field or yard, but that is the main reason I will never own one of those breeds I suppose. :-)

Olivia, keep your head up and keep working at it. :-) Just remember how much you love the little monster!

To correct...when I stated that my dogs are on long lines....I should have said for those not familiar with their (long lines) use...I meant dragging long lines. My 8 wk old pups start on a very light weight 10 foot line in my fenced yard & out on the fields & graduate to 25-30 ft lines as older dogs. They don't even think about the lines...as they grow up with them & are 'free' from the begining. Like Sarah stated...they have freedom & therefore don't feel the NEED to run away...they stay with me & their pack.

I'm sorry...I shouldn't try to post when I have 6 things going on at once here....as I miss stating somethings & need to go back & clearify.

I brought my puppy up off leash. Never had a problem with recall until we started encountering large prey animals like deer and moose. The pack instinct kicked in, and he and my shepherd both got into the chase. I use an e-collar, and advice from a very experienced board member who also has northern breeds.

I agree, a dog should want to be with you and not actively try to escape from you. But, some of this depends on the dog's personality and drives. My husky enjoys my company, and is actually a very one-person dog, but that doesn't mean he wants to hang with me all the time. If there is an awesome smelling moose over there, or a rabbit over there, that's something he'll investigate, in his own time, checking in when he feels like it, unless I recall him to me. By personality, my shepherd checks in on me frequently when off leash, my husky not so much. I am still working on the automatic check in with him. He is very smart- he knows where I am- figures I should know where he is. So, just because your dog doesn't cling to you all the time, doesn't mean you have a bad relationship. Frequent treats- encouraging him to check in, re-enforecement with the e-collar as needed, and making sure the dog keeps you in sight, are all training tools for a dog that has more independence. Some breeds were bred to work with a human directly (shepherds, border collies), others were bred to work both for and with the human, and/or in a dog pack, and to think more independently (field spaniels, sled dogs, hounds,). Just need to learn to work with what you have.

Sorry you had to go through this! I know how scary and frustrating that can be, ESPECIALLY with little ones and the stress of surgery! I think a dominant dog collar is a good idea, that way he can never back out. and now you know to up his training. I have read your posts before and you seem like such a great owner and really into Vader and his training. I think you guys will be ok. Like another poster said, he probably just thought it was a super fun game! 7 months old is still so young, and I bet whatever he smelled and the freedom of running around was a lot more enticing than whatever you had to offer him lol

If you start E collar training good luck! I am starting to up Capone's training now too. it has pretty much always been positive reinforcement for all OB commands up until now.