Maybe I should repeat-this has only happened twice and it HAS NOT HAPPENED when we were taking a stroll around the block. I just found out lastnight that the Schwans man episode-my daughter was still standing in the backround by the complex entryway and she said he (the Schwans man) scared the crap out of her(I did not know this when I posted). This ONLY has happened with dark areas-never in well lite areas, and the first guy that he barked at he did not lunged-or even bark aggressively-it was a warning bark of "hello I am here, stay away", and when I corrected him he immediately stopped. I am still going to go about training the way Don suggested and of course Deannas obedience obedience obedience.
Kealton, I have been around nervous, fear aggressive dogs, and my boy does not have an ounce of it, what he has is very high protection tendencies which is wonderful-but it means high responsibility on my end. This episode only has be slightly concerned because I know how quickly things can get out of control-and I know how people can overlook early warning signs. But rest assured, if I EVER felt he was a threat to society or anyone, he would no longer be a part of it-and I am not be the blind owner that sometimes comes across this board-no matter how much I love him.

Debbie, Lisa and Linda, thanks for your advice too, and it is good to know that I am not the only one who has a dog that looks out for Momma. And your right, a woman now adays never can be too safe, but have a big dog at your side does help you feel more secure. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Kelton - If you have control of your dog, then sure, you have a perfect right to walk around the block. If you don't have control (which is REALLY what we are talking about), then no...it could easily be argued that you do not have a right to endanger the public

Don's reply - We are both talking about control, like you I don't think a dog should be out walking around if he known to be out of control aggressive. If you notice that I mention that my dogs are in control and that only when approached in a certain manner that the dogs warn me or my wife. Like Dee they are more observant when my wife is on lead or by herself. I don't see that as a problem, I like that, this is probably where we differ, you have a problem with this. I don't different realities.

Back to Dee's issue she knows and sees her situation as workable. And she is devising a feasable plan, she has inquired about continued training to enhance Lobo's protective nature. I think if she continues to train and enhance their team work and capabilities that she on the right track. I don't think her dogs out of control. It is common for a dog to react in such a way. He just needs to be controlled and notice given to the people around him.

We have a responcibility to protect the uninformed let them know there is a certain way to approach or react. At night crime happens more often, crimes of convience and oppurtunity. Statistic does show that you are more likely to slip and fall then be mugged. But preparation is key for each incident, you can learn how to fall (Stunt man classes, Aikido or Judo) and train to prevent crime happen to you. If you have a dog that can ward off/warn you or take a bite out of crime use it, but also train in other self survival tactics like CCW or self defense. You may never have to use either but the benifit is confidence, fitness and being prepared. You don't have to be afraid of the world, just be aware of it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Based on the original post, I suspect that this dog is VERY workable....does not sound like one of those tricky sorts of cases at all.

I am only leary of a dog being allowed to "think" or "discriminate" as to what is an enemy and what is a friendly without defering to their owner before making a move. It's a big responsibility to own a dog that is willing to put the hurt on a person...especially an athletic dog. Probably everyone on this forum is keenly aware of this.

Dee Dee, I believe his reaction to strangers changed just as the conformation guy grabbed his testes, as you explained he hadn't showed any aggression until after that. Because now, he's associating that negative experience with pretty much anyone who walks upon him. I don't think obedience alone is the best answer. Even if you can get him to lay down & be quiet with force, his mental state hasn't changed. He still shouldn't have to be uncomfortable in this kind of situation. So I would try to make his experiences around new people as rewarding as possible from here on, ALONG with the obedience.

What I would do is try and reverse his thinking. Have a stranger(such as the convenient Schwan man)walk up and throw a ball for him, or a treat. Do that with several other random people. He'll soon realize people aren't after his balls <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Only the conformation guy is allowed to do this. So there's no need to get hackled up over harmless people.

I think everyone is giving very good advice. What it does boil down to, as Kelton has said is whether your dog is under control or whether he/she is being allowed to defer to his/her own thinking about an approaching human being.

If you are not 100% sure of how your dog will respond you have the responsibility to ensure no one can get hurt. Tyr has a bad tendency to "think" for himself. He has not attempted to bite anyone, but with his size and hackles up no one has ever approached. My husband is able to control him immediately, where with me, he tends to be much more independent. That is why I DON'T take him around a lot of folks for his walks (at least not on purpose). When I do I make sure I can control him and that if he reacts to something I can make sure no one is hurt.

In someways I was initially happy that Tyr didn't have to be trained to be protective, but I am now concerned that we train him well enough to control his possessiveness. He does well with other dogs unless they pull something first. Even then, he has tended (once) to use his body to subdue the other dog and didn't hurt the other dog at all. None-the-less no one should have to put up with someone else's poorly behaved and untrained animal.

I know not everyone can afford a vet teaching college visit, but with Tyr it was quite helpful to take him to an expert in shepherd behavior and have him evaluated. You will spend a lot of time there, but what information you get back will tell you a great deal about how your dog responds to humans, animals, situations, and noises. Then, armed with a composite view of your dog you have a great idea of where you stand. You may not come away entirely pleased that you have a head strong, intelligent dog, but you then have a clear idea of what you must do.

With the dog we are discussing here situations could be set up to see what the dogs "keys" or "triggers" are and it could go far to explain what is happening. Is he more fearful at night for some reason, or perhaps it was the testicle grabbing incident from which he can be desensitized. Who knows what goes on in the minds of our hairy canine friends. Guessing can be a big problem.

It may turn out to be, as with me, that I am a major trigger for Tyr's possessiveness. He showed no aggression when I was not in the room. When I came into the situation room he would immediately stand in front of me and growl if a man came close to me. He didn't growl when a puppy approached, but he did when a great dane was allowed to approach who was an intact male. He also did not growl when females approached. Knowing this, it becomes my responsibility to not place Tyr in a situation where he feels responsible for me and where someone else could get hurt.

I know, a doggy psychologist sounds wierd, but it sure helped us understand the workings of our pup's mind.

Good luck.

Originally posted by kelton sweet:
If you have control of your dog, then sure, you have a perfect right to walk around the block. If you don't have control (which is REALLY what we are talking about), I didn't get the sense that anyone was advocating walking an out of control, foaming at the mouth junkyard dog fear biter around in public for the purpose of scaring the bejeezus out of every poor schmoe that happens to be out for a stroll. I certainly hope that nobody inferred that from any of my posts.

then no...it could easily be argued that you do not have a right to endanger the public. You are far more likely, as I said, to injure an innocent person with a uncontrolled dog than you are to be a victim of a mugging. This, in fact, makes YOU the attacker if you dog does such a thing. It's not my wallet I'm concerned about. For me, the chances of being raped (one in four) are greater than the average American's chances of being bitten by a dog (one in fifty).

I agree, nobody has the right to endanger the public. To clarify, my dog is always leashed and under control. Friendly strangers and neutral passers by are in no danger.

The chances of someone getting bit by a dog who "gets to decide for himself" who is enemy & who is friend are huge. I'd bet every last cent on such a dog biting someone when on a walk as opposed to the owner getting mugged while walking a well behaved dog. Given that most of my friends/acquantances (and myself) have multiple stories of witnessing or experiencing dog bites...and literally none having been assaulted in any way on a walk (and most don't own dogs)...it's hard to imagine that an assault is more likely.
Like I said, if you are confident that your dog won't nail a person who is innocently acting in the variety of ways people act, that's great. Enjoy your walk!

Kelton - Given that most of my friends/acquantances (and myself) have multiple stories of witnessing or experiencing dog bites...and literally none having been assaulted in any way on a walk (and most don't own dogs)...it's hard to imagine that an assault is more likely.

Don's reply - How many were acually trained, its agreed that a poorly trained dog is a threat to the owner and general public.

There are some Yippies that stay locked up in there Town/Pen house apartments that feel that feels statistic state attacks/assaults don't happen often to worry about. They have security guards out front with intercoms and electronically controlled access gates. They think crime don't happen anymore and a protection dog or even a gun is a thing of the past. Until they get mugged or attacked at the mail box or ATM. That rare moment that they venture out.

I'm a 6'3 230lb male and theres been times were I was assaulted before working with dogs. I usually came out pretty fair being prepared. I'm older now not as fast or strong. Now having my dogs around I can even the odds, recently there have been incidents where a situation could have turned into a crisis. The dogs intervene evening the odds and the guys back off.

The dogs came to investigate loud noises and respond to this without a command. They were called off on the run maybe a yard or two from these guy.

So control is factor, and did I know that they would break off the attack, they do it in training but will they do it this time???

All I could do is hope? There are sometimes, when deers, rabbits and cats jump and run, they sometimes won't break off immeadiately. Training is the key for control, but sometimes. So I see what you are talking about, my heart does pound when the dogs engage an opponent. But it was pounding anyway when I was wonder which guy to hit first, if they try anything.

The more you are out and about alone the more you are subject to attack. I had a 6'5 235lb friend stop to help two stranded motorist he got beat with a tire tool and his vehicle stolen. He looked like a mummy about the head. So in my nake of the woods attacks do happen and you need everything and anything to stop it form happening to you.

Rottilers, Pit Bulls and Labs are the dominate dogs in my area. There are some GSD.

 Quote:

Originally posted by kelton sweet:
Like I said, if you are confident that your dog won't nail a person who is innocently acting in the variety of ways people act, that's great. Enjoy your walk!

I am. Thanks for your blessing. It's really important to me that you approve. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In defense of Tyr, and at the risk of making an anthropromorphic observation, if I was minding my own business and a stranger came up to me and started tugging at my testicles he would get more of a reaction than my hackles showing and a little growling. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Seriously though, he sounds like a great dog and I am greatful to have a little overprotective female gsd. She's under perfect control but most strangers don't think so and I'm not sure thats all bad now days. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />