Quote: kelly byrd

 Quote: aaron myracle

 Quote: kelly byrd

 Quote: theresa rutherford

I have some health issues that make it hard for me to do a quick jerk on the prong collar I prefer to use the e-collar.

Just keep in mind an electrical stim is MUCH different then a physical correction on an e-collar. E-collars lend themselves to superstitious behaviors, even when used correctly.

To the extent that we actively USE that superstitious behavior to our advantage.

We use it to teach food refusal, for example.

Invisible fences are nothing more than using a dog's superstitious behavior.

Totally agree- but that is with a dog that has been taught what the correction is, and it's being used in a fair manner. Full power, for 4 seconds, with no response leads me to believe that this dog does not understand what it means.

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly.

To the degree that I would attribute some of this dogs "fear" issues to not understanding the E-collar corrections.

I mention the food refusal and invisible fence as proof that e-collars cause superstitious behavior.

I assert that misuse of an E-collar can cause superstitious behavior that looks remarkably like fearful temperament.

Aaron, I can't make him sit when I am trying to take him for a walk - is he supposed to sit while I drag him along???? lol

Also, I have never been mean to him or rough on him at any time. He is not being abused in any way and is not afraid of me or the collars. I also, don't use the e-collar on a very high setting and am using it in the way Ed Frawley teaches. He is a happy dog who gets to play and have fun. Even Ed Frawley shows in a video using it on a dog much younger that Rocky - Rocky was 15 months before I ever started using it and then only after being conditioned to wearing it for 1 month.

My husband and children are leaving the training up to me. They don't hurt him or abuse him, either.

His daily life is NOT confusing, unpredictable and stressful. He is Happy - I have a "Cesar Milan" - friend who just loves how sweet and loving he is and how easy he is to train. We have a routine that our day follows and he knows where he fits into our lives.

I also haven't thought about telling him to sit when we encounter a situation where he wants to run after something - I will try that next time.

You have never asked for a different behavior when he was about to do one you didn't want?

 Quote: Theresa Rutherford

He is 100% on sit, down, stay, recall, place..., even though I have had him since he was 8 weeks old he is still learning about his environment and the animals around him, and how he is to interact with them. I have been working with him consistently and he is doing great. His only downfalls are people other than family and the animals on our farm - he IS naturally a herding dog and he wants to do that seriously (he feels that he needs to control everything - our children included)...I don't want him to herd our animals or our children, so I am working with him on other behaviors to take the place of his natural instincts - re-directing him to other activities - he does leave the children alone, now.

I would venture to guess that part of the reason this has become an issue is because of this (from the donkey thread)

He runs around his kennel even while they are outside the yard fence (his kennel is in the yard about 20 feet from the fence.)

He has taugh himself be default to get worked up and over the top when the animals are around. You're going to have to step by step desensitize him to the animals and teach him to stay under threshold around the animal. so for starters you need to kennel him where he can't see the farm animals. Then you need to do OB from square one and gradually work him closer to the distraction of the animals. You're going to need to do this by baby steps so the process will most liekly take months

 Quote:

he IS naturally a herding dog and he wants to do that seriously (he feels that he needs to control everything - our children included)...

It sounds like he needs more mental activity. What kind of jobs can you come up with for him? You've got 7 kids, what about tracking or hide and seek games for him? something that lets him use his mind and his abilities.

I have Border Collies and I find the more I engage them in fulfilling activities, the easier it is to train them to chill around people and other animals.

Ditto, Mara. I would like to read about his daily training regimen. I especially would like to hear about proofing for venue and distraction, and whether markers are used.




PS
"He is Happy" ... for me, happy includes being calm around strangers, taking his cue from me and not perceiving that he has no pack leader. I know you keep saying that you are his pack leader, but no --- I see it that you are simply more of a pack leader than the other family members are.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

You have never asked for a different behavior when he was about to do one you didn't want?

No, since he is my first dog, I am still learning and never thought to do that.

As for teaching him with distractions...yes, I do. I work with him first in the yard with just the 2 of us, then with the children in the yard with us, then with the children playing in the yard, then with the animals close to the fence, but not among the animals when the donkey is around. The donkey, if you haven't read the previous post truly antagonizes Rocky - she is mean to him and I have never been able to figure out what to do about it...that is why I wrote the other day about that problem. When I take Rocky out of the yard the donkey comes running to us trying to start something with him - we are contemplating getting rid of her because she is the problem with other issues on the farm, too.

He truly is 100% on everything - I am not glamorizing anything - everyone who sees him comments on his great behavior. I can and do quickly get him under control with no problem around the farm - I worked with him while we were visiting family and was able to get him under control relatively easily around other people and animals by the time we left.

Mara, that is something I want to do, but I am having a hard time trying to come up with jobs for him. Any suggestions - I have a hard time thinking up things. I have had friends ask about jobs for him, but they haven't suggested things for him either.

If he is truly 100%, then tell him to come, when he chases the donkey. Problem solved.

 Quote: theresa rutherford

Aaron, I can't make him sit when I am trying to take him for a walk - is he supposed to sit while I drag him along???? lol

Also, I have never been mean to him or rough on him at any time. He is not being abused in any way and is not afraid of me or the collars. I also, don't use the e-collar on a very high setting and am using it in the way Ed Frawley teaches. He is a happy dog who gets to play and have fun. Even Ed Frawley shows in a video using it on a dog much younger that Rocky - Rocky was 15 months before I ever started using it and then only after being conditioned to wearing it for 1 month.

My husband and children are leaving the training up to me. They don't hurt him or abuse him, either.

His daily life is NOT confusing, unpredictable and stressful. He is Happy - I have a "Cesar Milan" - friend who just loves how sweet and loving he is and how easy he is to train. We have a routine that our day follows and he knows where he fits into our lives.

I also haven't thought about telling him to sit when we encounter a situation where he wants to run after something - I will try that next time.

I don't think you're being intentionally mean with the collar.

What were you saying when you used the e-collar on him while he was chasing the donkey?

What command was he disobeying that you corrected him for?

I still think and others have said the same) that the donkey and the dog must be separated. Visually as well as physically.

If we go back to Post #1, we'll remember that the major problem here is his reactivity to non-family humans and to all dogs. I thought there was a chicken issue too, but maybe I misread that.

I don't think you can work on the desensitizing without regular visits (and someone correctly pointed out that we don't mean a crowd of people pulling up in a bus) and without the dog regularly taken to populated places to be worked with at the outside edge of if reactive zone.

Tell us how you could work this. What do you have access to? Do you pick up the kids from school, for example? Is there a dog park (NOT TO GO INSIDE!) that has a chain-link fence? Is there a Petsmart?

 Quote: aaron myracle

I don't think you're being intentionally mean with the collar.

What were you saying when you used the e-collar on him while he was chasing the donkey?

What command was he disobeying that you corrected him for?

Don't want to lose this. This was something that struck me big time too. I pictured no command at all (or maybe a shouted "no") and a 4-second stim.