I've left the whole submit thing behind. It was really unpleasant and Jethro did not take it well. I do a little pack order stuff now and then - ignoring Jethro when he seeks attention, stepping over him not around him, NILF. But mostly now I use calming signals. It is really amazing when Jethro is pestering for attention, I turn away and yawn and when I look back he has gone and laid down. I love it when Jethro offers me eye contact. It feels like a gift of trust. If I give him a hard stare he is really upset - kind of like - he has lost confidence that he knows where he fits into things.

 Quote: dennis jones

I cringe a little when someone talks about establishing "rank" over a dog. I like to think my dog understand we have a partnership or commensal relationship. Or at the very least the dog understands who signs the paychecks around here.

Very good point, Dennis.

Non confrontational leadership is a much better way to go, especialy if you have a strong dog. Far too many people think they have to show the dog who's boss by assuming a rank position. We aren't alpha wolves, never will be, and the dog knows it.

Plus, the reality is that if rank is an issue to your dog, you will soon find that you were very mistaken in your method.

Mutual understanding is the best solution.

When it comes to the correction method, I think its better to think of it as calming a crazy puppy rather than a correction. I personaly believe that the method in question should be avoided when ever possible by paying attention to what is going to overstimulate the puppy in the first place.

JMO, of course.

 Quote: stephanie bishop

and is starting to scare me a bit with his telling me off.

I should not have responded until I had more time and could explain my opinion more thoroughly. I was in the middle of getting ready for a Board meeting - a stupid time to be logging into LB!!

The above comment caught my eye... the fact that he is starting to scare you a bit with some of his actions. Maybe you didn't mean it literally, and honestly, a high drive, biting little land shark might have scared me 2.5 years ago, so I do understand how it can be overwhelming. Really. It is obvious you are trying to learn how to handle this little biting machine and if he were mine right now, I'd be sitting in the corner, rocking and sucking my thumb.

This tough little guy can't harrass your Saint if he is teathered (as already mentioned). I get the wanting "family time" with both dogs together, but it doesn't sound like right now is the best time for this. The little alligator is going to need more time, more training, more manners, etc... before he has earned the right to be part of "family time". He doesn't understand right yet what is expected of him, nor does he have the self control to handle it even if he did understand. He isn't trying to be a pain; he just is doing what comes naturally at this point.

I personally don't recommend correcting a 13 week old puppy. I'd prefer to manage him... exercise him to tire him out, play with him, control him and then put his little fuzzy butt in a crate. You have already found the grabbing of his face, etc... doesn't work. I'm not saying it is horrible advice for every situation or every dog, but so far, the folks we hear from that try this technique don't have much success. (It might take a certain personality/level of experience to pull it off correctly - I don't know.)

Sorry I came across so bluntly earlier; it wasn't intended to sound harsh.

LOL have to say i prob wrote and re-wrote my responce 3 or 4 times..not getting why such a abrupt reply was sent. BUT i also knw you were busy lol..so no worries there!
OH and i think i will need to invest in the bitter apple stuff asap. tried tethering for a bit tonight. he ran and pulled and barked and whined. He is VERY good on leash normally but you are SO SO SO right. he is not ready for the reward of "family time". even for the 10-20 mins he has now.
oh and with all the negative things i say about Ace you all most likely think I am WAY over my head and have no clue as to how to even start working with a pup. BUT i have to brag a little bit and tell you the things he does know and what he has accomplished!
He knows sit, down, wait, and stand..he is crate trained, potty trained, has a WONDERFUL focus (which is more natural than taught by me), LOVES to go on walks. I take him at night when things are most "wierd" only because that's the only free time I get to go for a good long relaxing walk. EVERY sound, shadow, dog, cat, person, trash can, car or rodent that we encounter Ace not only looks to me first for his next move..but once he gets the "ok" he will go to the end of the leash and try to investigate at full force. some things I allow him to look into other things (like other dogs) i tell him leave it and I stand in between. The ONLY thing he has EVER shyed at is the neighbors rottie trying to jump the fence and eat us. SO SO SO glad i didn't have to protect Ace from that female. But I would have with no hesitation. He quickly recovered and started to bark right back. at that point i pulled out a treat and re directed his focus. so now everytime we walk by he looks at me expecting a treat. which he gets. We go to HOme depto and Lowes weekly and work on all basic obedience with as many distractions as possible. He NEVER loses focus and is very very very well behaved. I tell EVERYone not to touch even though Ace doesn't approach anyone on his own anyways. but he will be allowed to snif certain folks after i explain to them that he is in training and not to touch him. So he has many many many good qualities and is a quick learner in many area's. OH and when it's meal time he is in the kitchen with me lays down and watches calmly. Even Moses can't distract that focus. every now and then he gets a treat (carrots, raw meat tid bits, ect). He has over come attacking me when i move quickly. he no longer barks at the kitties passing by. AND he acctually snuggled me before i put him in his play pen. I sat down and he crawled under my arm laid down and nuzzled me for love. Which he NEVER does. it's all play with him I just don't want ya'll to think i'm a total reject pet owner. I have trained a LOT of family dogs and problem dogs for a rescue i used to work with. But that training was 180 degs different than what i am doing with Ace and I ask a ton of questions to make sure i don't resort back to my previous training meathods. Which kill prey drive, is pack leader based, and would ultimatly ruin a sports dog. So again..I just want to thank you ALL even if i do need a quick kick in the butt to get my head out of the sand.

Puppies at that age can positively be a handful!

I've said it before on the forum, and I will say it again. My dog made me cry when she was that age. We survived, and now we are even good friends.

I admit, there were too many days to count where I asked myself what in the world I was thinking after getting my knucklehead...

You are right, those days pass and you end up with this very cool beast.

After lots and lots and lots of work and training. But it DOES get easier.

yes..well it might be easier if my hubby didn't just sit back, watch ace in all his glory, then look at me roll his eyes and say "what did you do". Talk about lack of support system! He tends to ask "how much did you spend on that thing" and after he watched ace draw blood a few times on me..will NOT do anything but take him out to potty now and then. So lets just say..you all are my sanity outlet! I'm so glad to know you all survived..it gives me hope
I will over come. calmly. and by the grace of God have all five fingers and toes left over to prove, with friends like you, anyone can over come even the most "special" puppy.

Ah, the fun in owning a husband Mine helps me make food for the pups every week b/c I really dislike cutting raw meat, but I cannot remember a time he has walked our dogs, did a training session or even brushed one and we are going on 6 yrs with our oldest. We may do all the work, but at the end of the day we can say "they love me better ." Good luck with your little guy. He seems to have a determined personality and that can be a fantastic tool to have!

Something that stuck out to me in your first post was that you do your own bitework with him. So you've taught him its okay to bark at you and go wild on you. Puppies can't reason out which situation is ok to bark and go crazy and which situation isn't. I like to leave all that to the helper. That way you aren't causing any conflict or creating bad habits with your pup.

 Quote: stephanie bishop

yes..I will over come. calmly. and by the grace of God have all five fingers and toes left over to prove, with friends like you, anyone can over come even the most "special" puppy.

I would like to recommend the neosporin with pain reliever in it as well as Bandaid hurt free wound wash which has lanacaine in it. Both of them kill germs and take the sting right out of those needle teeth owies.