Konnie Hein wrote 04/29/2011 10:58 AM Re: New Dog Aggressive Toward Four Year Old [Re: Kelsey Perkins ] #330151 - 04/29/2011 10:58 AM
Konnie Hein Webboard User Reg: 03-24-2006 Posts: 413 Loc: Connecticut Offline	Seriously, this dog is an accident waiting to happen. I know you wouldn't want anything to happen to your children. Please return this dog to the shelter ASAP. Your children are much more important than this dog or his future. Warning: Graphic photos contained in this link. http://leerburg.com/dogbites.htm http://www.laforgemalinois.com
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Tracy Collins wrote 04/29/2011 11:02 AM Re: New Dog Aggressive Toward Four Year Old [Re: Konnie Hein ] #330153 - 04/29/2011 11:02 AM
Tracy Collins Webboard User Reg: 10-09-2008 Posts: 1917 Loc: St. Louis, Missouri Offline	You wouldn't have selected this dog at all if you knew his history. You gave it a shot. Much as I hate the idea of "returning" a dog as if it were a pair of pants that didn't fit, think of this from the dog's point of view. He's in a home where he isn't comfortable. He's afraid of children. And now is forced to live with one. He is probably a great dog, and deserves to find a home where he will succeed. Cinco | Jack | Fanny | Ellie | Chip | Deacon
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Kelsey Perkins wrote 04/29/2011 11:04 AM Re: New Dog Aggressive Toward Four Year Old [Re: Konnie Hein ] #330154 - 04/29/2011 11:04 AM
Kelsey Perkins Webboard User Reg: 04-28-2011 Posts: 26 Loc: Offline	Yeah, I've looked at that link before. Definitely not something we want to happen here. I realize we probably aren't doing *everything* right but I hope it is clear that we are taking every precaution we can to prevent the dog from having any access to our son while we figure out what to do. I understand why folks think he needs to go back, I also hope I've made it clear that I am primarily in that camp as well right now - I just want to explore all options.
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Connie Sutherland wrote 04/29/2011 11:09 AM Re: New Dog Aggressive Toward Four Year Old [Re: CJ Barrett ] #330156 - 04/29/2011 11:09 AM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	I'm afraid that with so many variables (among the humans and even having adopted two dogs at once), I too lean towards recognizing that it was not you, but the shelter, putting the poor dog with you, knowing that you had a toddler, that's in breach here.  Quote: jenny arntzen As far as your commitment to the dog goes, you adopted it under certain conditions of the dog's history and appropriate placement in your home. There was an error in making this placement that put your child at risk. The shelter needs to know this error was made and rectify the situation. They have not only put your child at risk, they have put the dog at risk. You are not helping the shelter improve its placement process, nor future dogs and families that may be put into this situation. I don't think you committed to this particular dog in this situation. There was an error and your responsibility lies in helping the shelter ensure it doesn't happen again. I'm sorry you are faced with such daunting decisions! Whatever the decision is, please listen to Tracy: one dog's job is not EVER to correct the other dog.  Quote: kelsey perkins I have another question, not really related to training but more out of curiosity about something I witnessed between my two dogs. Do dogs ever teach each other the "rules" with regard to family members? In the way you describe, IMO, not likely. I don't think that one new dog is trying to teach the other new dog not to attack your family. Even though yes, dogs do observe and learn some of the SOP from each other, I wouldn't put money on this being what was going on there. There are several possible constructions to put on that behavior, and IMO, among the least likely is that one new dog was protecting the child from the other new dog. I'm so sorry you're facing this. "But given this dog’s past, the new situation he has placed into and what you’ve experienced so far - it’s a bit of a no brainer for me." The presence of a 4-year-old is the deal-breaker for me here.
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Kelsey Perkins wrote 04/29/2011 11:12 AM Re: New Dog Aggressive Toward Four Year Old [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #330158 - 04/29/2011 11:12 AM
Kelsey Perkins Webboard User Reg: 04-28-2011 Posts: 26 Loc: Offline	We won't allow her to display this sort of behavior in the future if it is a negative thing. My partner and I were both unsure if it was a protective action with regard to Jubal or a dominance action with regard to our son. I realize that technically speaking protectiveness *is* dominance because if she viewed our sons as pack leaders she wouldn't feel the need to protect them at all, she would expect them to protect her - but then, they are also children and probably won't ever be pack leaders the way my partner and I are trying to establish ourselves.
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Kelsey Perkins wrote 04/29/2011 11:40 AM Re: New Dog Aggressive Toward Four Year Old [Re: Kelsey Perkins ] #330161 - 04/29/2011 11:40 AM
Kelsey Perkins Webboard User Reg: 04-28-2011 Posts: 26 Loc: Offline	Well, thanks everyone. Such a sad situation. This shelter is high oh my shit list.
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Elizabeth Munoz wrote 04/29/2011 11:44 AM Re: New Dog Aggressive Toward Four Year Old [Re: Kelsey Perkins ] #330162 - 04/29/2011 11:44 AM
Elizabeth Munoz Webboard User Reg: 02-10-2011 Posts: 122 Loc: Ca Offline	I am not an expert and can not give you advice except to listen to those who already replied and give the dog back. I live with My sister and she is going to give birth to my nephew Matthew in four months time I have a dog named Izzy I love with all my heart and she will have no interaction with the baby ever period. But if she showed any inclination of aggression to him she would be re homed to an adult only home asap. It would not fair to her to be crated all the time and I just don't have the experience to help her. The risk is just to great and it only takes one time to be lax and a disaster happens. are you or your partner willing to take that risk?
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Kelsey Perkins wrote 04/29/2011 11:48 AM Re: New Dog Aggressive Toward Four Year Old [Re: Elizabeth Munoz ] #330164 - 04/29/2011 11:48 AM
Kelsey Perkins Webboard User Reg: 04-28-2011 Posts: 26 Loc: Offline	No, not really. We are willing to manage it and keep them separate for a period of time, but it's not practical for the entire life of the dog. If he can't gain a level of comfort with our living situation and our four year old then it wouldn't be fair to either one. One thing our trainer said is that we may want to consider leaving the dog with her for a time to do more work with him. It may be she can work with him around kids in controlled settings before putting him back in the home. I don't know if that sort of thing is likely to work or not, though. Plus there is the cost factor. We can afford to take care of a dog and do it well, but I'm not sure if we can afford extensive training and rehabilitation from a professional in this way. Don't get me wrong, we expected to invest in obedience training etc. and to work heavily with any dog we brought into our home, but these are issues beyond what we can manage by ourselves.
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Kelly wrote 04/29/2011 12:16 PM Re: New Dog Aggressive Toward Four Year Old [Re: Kelsey Perkins ] #330167 - 04/29/2011 12:16 PM
Kelly Moderator Reg: 06-03-2005 Posts: 1495 Loc: Offline	This dog has a documented history of abuse by small children. He has learned to deal with abuse by being aggressive. This is what has worked for him. In his mind this is what has kept him alive. I'm not even going to go into how dangerous it is for the young child here, but I want to address the dog's sanity. If you were so afraid of something that you felt you had to fight for your life, would you want to be faced with it each and every day? Desensitization will help with a typical fear, but this is abuse and in the dog's head, it was a life or death thing. It's not fair to make the dog live with something that, rationally or irrationally, terrifies him. That's just no life to live. You and your partner want what's best for this dog. Living in a home with a small child is not what is best for him. Just my 2 cents. --Kel
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Connie Sutherland wrote 04/29/2011 12:27 PM Re: New Dog Aggressive Toward Four Year Old [Re: Kelly ] #330169 - 04/29/2011 12:27 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	SO true, Kelly.
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