Quote: amanda gazzard

But any recommendations for books/dvds are very welcome! I have actually been hunting around leerburgs website for some of the free content and found some great stuff.

First, a quick eBook or Podcast:

http://leerburg.com/pdf/markers-clickers.pdf

http://leerburg.com/podcasts/trainyourdogwithmarkers.mp3
(It's about 15 minutes. Where Ed says he uses the marker "Yes" in the podcast, you can think of that where many trainers use a clicker. That is, markers can be verbal or mechanical.)


And look! http://leerburg.com/flix/searchResults.php?searchfor=ellis

Any and everything there, but be sure to scroll down to Puppy Training with Michael Ellis and The Power of Training Dogs with Food with Michael Ellis
.... but there is a TON there.

I just want to say that a clicker class for basics is going to show you how to train. The frosting (locations, special apps, etc.) all hearken back to the basic methods. I would start with marker training, no matter what my future plans were.

If you are like me, you will get every penny's worth and then some out of these, in this order:

http://leerburg.com/219.htm

http://leerburg.com/220.htm

 Quote: Amanda Gazzard

And I know that all places teach some kind of urban safety, but I'm having a hard time finding places that teach in multiple locations outdoors.

You've mentioned this a couple of times, that one of the things you like about the particular facility you linked us to is that they teach outdoors, in multiple locations. I'd just like to point out that this is what everyone who is training a dog should be doing! You yourself can and should take your dog to all sorts of places and expose him/her to all kinds of sights and sounds so he/she learns to focus on you and listen to you amidst distractions of all kinds.

You don't have to take a special class to do this. For example, you may take a class at a facility where you go to their classroom once a week. Your homework will definitely include practicing your training with your puppy the other six days of the week. Don't limit yourself to just practicing in your living room or your yard. Take the dog to parks, a friend's home, school yards, shopping centers, and work on your obedience training. Of course, this is a gradual process! Start out with small distractions and work your way up. Use your imagination. This is how you will end up with a well-mannered dog that you can take anywhere.

Yup! Another great post!

I like this opening to the eBook I linked above:

QUOTING ED:

Marker training is the most effective training system I have
seen in my 50 plus years of training dogs. It’s a black and
white method of communication that is based on positive
reinforcement.

Marker training provides the dog trainer a motivational
method of telling his dog “the instant” his dog does
something you like. It provides a non-punishment method
of telling a dog “the instant” the dog does something you
don’t like and it provides a motivational method of telling
a dog that you like what he is currently doing and you
want him to continue to do exactly what he is doing at this
moment in time.

If you stop and think about it, when you can do these
three things and do them in a fashion that keeps your dog
motivated and engaged with his handler then you can
teach that dog to do almost anything. END QUOTE

This, in a nutshell, is why I have such surprise about someone in this day and age who dismisses all of this as "confusing." That's someone who has no idea what they are dismissing. They have never seen marker training, or, more likely, they have never seen it done right.

JMO!

So here is what I see: Brad Pattison - At the end of my leash

Everything seems to be structured in his "style". Meaning there are no "rewards" per se, but more do it or be corrected, regardless of if you know it. It definitely could work, but is it the best way to go about it, IMO no. There are many trainers who work dogs in different areas and expose them to different situations. I would check out at least 3 to see who's classes you like best, and who YOU can learn the most from.

I could be completely wrong and they are just misrepresenting themselves. Maybe I just understood it wrong?

I've read the free ebook on the power of marker training.
And no the place I'm talking about is not a "correction" method of training (I don't there are many of those types of places anymore?) it's positive reinforcement only, just without using food. And ya I suppose it makes sense for me to do the outdoors/multiple locations myself, but it would be easier and I would feel more comfortable doing it in a class setting.

And no it's not legal to walk a dog off leash in the city, except in the dog parks. Dog parks are the only place you're allowed, so that's why I want recall, dog park safety, and off leash skills. I also do a lot of camping and I grew up camping with dogs that we didn't tie up and it wasn't a problem. I hope if I can train my beagle well enough he won't have to be tied up all the time (the beagle generalization says they are terrible off leash). I'm also thinking of training recall with a whistle just in case.

But thanks everyone for all the great suggestions. It's really helped me see it from all angles, which is exactly what i needed! I don't think I'm going to go with this place anymore since you guys have made me see that the methods are the most important thing in dog training. I might just get some of the leerburg dvds and books and after puppy classes (mostly for socialization) I'll see if I might be able to do my own training.
THere's also a place called k9pro based in australia that offers distance learning packages, where I think you video your training sessions (which are assigned) and send them in and get feedback. They seem to have a lot of the same philosophies as leerburg methods, but they use different terminology such as "training in drive" which I think is just a way of saying training using engagement. Check out this beagle who was trained with a distance learning package!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_fZUpbiCC0

" I might just get some of the leerburg dvds and books and after puppy classes (mostly for socialization) I'll see if I might be able to do my own training. "

I'd also watch some of the free streaming video from the newsletters. The handlers are not professionals. The dogs are being trained (not showing off their training from before).

Check out the article "putting puppy in it's place" to give you a pretty good idea of their philosophy. Heavy handed and old-fashioned. The pup is taught to not run out the front door by bouncing it off his nose a few times and then swinging it back and forth to make him even more wary of it. He's taught not tobite hands too hard by rapping him on the muzzle with a few fingers. Jumping gets him basically smacked to the ground. Not good at all. I'd stay away from this place especially with a pup. The reporter's experience strips away all the marketing crap.

 Quote: cathy goessman

Check out the article "putting puppy in it's place" to give you a pretty good idea of their philosophy. Heavy handed and old-fashioned. The pup is taught to not run out the front door by bouncing it off his nose a few times and then swinging it back and forth to make him even more wary of it. He's taught not tobite hands too hard by rapping him on the muzzle with a few fingers. Jumping gets him basically smacked to the ground. Not good at all. I'd stay away from this place especially with a pup. The reporter's experience strips away all the marketing crap.

Which facility?



eta
Ah. Found it.

http://www.clevercanines.ca/press1.html

Positive reinforcement only? I think Bob Scott nailed it way back at the beginning of the thread. The dog works for something. In this case (as written in that article, anyway), it's to avoid pain.


Edited by Connie Sutherland (06/17/2011 01:42 PM)
Edit reason: eta

I should add that I do use corrections when/if needed. But in my book, corrections are not appropriate in the teaching phase. How can we "correct" what we have not yet taught?

If the dog has not been taught the wanted behavior, then those heavy-handed methods are not "corrections."

Oh ya... I guess I'm the one that misinterpreted their methods. Thanks for pointing that out! I can't believe I missed that. That would have been horrible to go to my first puppy class and come to that realization. But I already decided not to use this facility anyways.