Quote: SamanthaTopper

Apparently hitting the dog is appropriate, but he's not allowed to 'hit' you back.

If this were my situation I would slap the wife for hitting the dog

Wow. Definition of hypocrisy.

I can't believe I suddenly feel like I have to sit here and defend myself on a web board, but here goes.

1. If we're going to argue like children, then certainly it's appropriate for me to begin with the "he started it" defense. I do not "hit my dog." And, I most definitely do not effect physical punishment of any kind upon my dog unless he displays aggression first-- by growling, baring his teeth, or as in this case snapping at a family member. This dog is spoiled with positive affection, positive reinforcement OB and treats for hours a day. When we're doing OB I barely even tug on his prong collar when he needs a quick reminder to stay close.
If you had read my first post thoroughly you would see (section titled "edit") my clarification that this is the only situation in which I would react this way to the dog.

This is my polite response to your sarcastic statement "then again I don't have to resort to beating on animals to teach them a lesson." Learn to argue like an adult and maybe I'll give your thoughts consideration. So, while there are loads of helpful posts and suggestions in this thread (thanks to everyone else), you will understand if I don't give your particular response a single iota of credence.

2. In response to keeping my hands off the dog (Sheila thanks for your response), I totally agree. The only reason I know he's soft is because of my attitude toward this specific behavior. He's 1.5yo now, and this happened. Once previously when he was 9mo, he reared up at the wife and showed some tooth. Similar reaction from me, and then from him. And then when he was a tiny pup, just initially teaching him no teeth, he would occasionally get a little shake of the scruff. That's it. That's the extent of any kind of aggression I've ever shown the dog, and each of those times, it has been directly in response to the same from him.

3. I understand that some people don't believe in this type of punishment at any time. It's certainly "old-school," and I agree that it should be seriously limited. This is, IMO, *exactly* the same as the "spanking your children" argument. Some say never, and some say that at a certain age, and/or for certain behaviors, it's literally the only consequence that a child can grasp.



Back to bed.

You certainly don't have to defend yourself to me. I simply disagree with your and your wife's reactions toward your dog. If we were talking in person you'd see that I'm not being abusive or rude. Just myself - honest and blunt.

I've never had to violently assault my dogs in order to teach them to respect people, in general. All of them have had their moments, and all of them have been corrected and taught the correct response to their stress from a loving, guiding stand point. I really enjoy being a leader they can love and respect, instead of reacting to their violence with violence, escalating their stress and then leaving them alone to deal with it on their own.

You better believe I'll pop anyone who hits my animals. I've done it before, I'll continue to do it. HUMANS may be animal, but we have something only a select few mammals have -the ability to rationalize, reason, understand complex concepts. If I slap my husband for picking up my dog and throwing her across the room when she bit his hand because he wanted the piece of hamburger she was eating, he understands why and can talk with me about it. The dog doesn't understand why this crazy lunatic just picked her up and threw her across the room, but obviously the man is dangerous and needs to be watched.

I just actually read your post, instead of skimming the first line and realizing you're getting defensive. It's typical to see people who can't control impulses to hit things behave toward people who call them out on it just like you are. 'I'm not listening to you!' Really? Grade school much? Grow up.

 Quote: Chris Waple

1. If we're going to argue like children, then certainly it's appropriate for me to begin with the "he started it" defense. I do not "hit my dog." And, I most definitely do not effect physical punishment of any kind upon my dog unless he displays aggression first-- by growling, baring his teeth, or as in this case snapping at a family member. This dog is spoiled with positive affection, positive reinforcement OB and treats for hours a day. When we're doing OB I barely even tug on his prong collar when he needs a quick reminder to stay close.
If you had read my first post thoroughly you would see (section titled "edit") my clarification that this is the only situation in which I would react this way to the dog.


2. In response to keeping my hands off the dog (Sheila thanks for your response), I totally agree. The only reason I know he's soft is because of my attitude toward this specific behavior. He's 1.5yo now, and this happened. Once previously when he was 9mo, he reared up at the wife and showed some tooth. Similar reaction from me, and then from him. And then when he was a tiny pup, just initially teaching him no teeth, he would occasionally get a little shake of the scruff. That's it. That's the extent of any kind of aggression I've ever shown the dog, and each of those times, it has been directly in response to the same from him.

3. I understand that some people don't believe in this type of punishment at any time. It's certainly "old-school," and I agree that it should be seriously limited. This is, IMO, *exactly* the same as the "spanking your children" argument. Some say never, and some say that at a certain age, and/or for certain behaviors, it's literally the only consequence that a child can grasp.



Back to bed.

I couldn't agree more. I would be careful about how hard a correction is for the dog but for biting, growling(at me or a family member,only), such behavior I agree. The fact is people say that physically punishing a dog for such behaviors is wrong but it is better than having the dog PTS because the dog bit your child.
A wolf pack leader-or higher ranking dogs don't trade items so that they won't get bit.
Also people do not give them near the credit they deserve. Dogs are smarter that you thing and I think they are able to process more than we want to believe. Just because they don't speak English doesn't mean they don't understand.
My dog must NEVER show aggression to people in the family. I have not had to seriously correct Zuki that I can remember but Keiko has had a few hard prong corrections, it is for their own good. IMHO
I do agree with Sheila as well that you should be careful about correcting this dog-you don't want him to just shut down.

I have had to give physical corrections to kaiser only 3 times so far in his 18 months of living with me. First time at 10 m/o when he growled at me for picking him up. Next is at 12 m/o when he growled at my nephew when my nephew wanted to take his pillow back and last time was a few months back when he got all worked up at a strange street dog while we were on a walk and lifted his leg on me and peed on my leg while aggressively focusing on the other dog.

I dont have a chain /crate/cage for Kaiser or any of my dogs. They all roam freely 24 hours a day.

I agree that all training should be positive and we should not create a conflict for the dog. But despite our best efforts when conflict arises (due to our mistakes) and the dog gets aggressive, I will absolutely correct the dog , but go back and make sure I train him positively and avoid such conflicts in the future. But once aggression is shown, IMO I will correct the dog.


I have had no problems with any of my dogs with regards to aggression.


The children in my family freely engage with the dogs under adult supervision .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqfkDXtYoI0

"Also told the wife that if he ever does that again (God forbid), she needs to truly HURT the dog. "


Dangerous.

MHO is that posts like Steve Strom's and Bob Scott's (page one and page two) will take you far. (Others too, but I think they nailed it, including the danger in what you told your wife and the use of the crate as punishment .... and more, such as the lack of an important facet of training prior to the incident).

This is something to work on so it just doesn't happen again.

 Quote: Sheila Buckley

 Quote: Chris Waple

When he's corrected with a shake of the neck or a slap, he knows he's being punished and gets all mopey about it immediately.

... From your original post it sounded like you would only use your hands to correct your dog in response to aggression, however; it seems like he has been slapped or shaken for other things as well? .... A few thoughts: first of all IMO a correction should immediately stop the behavior and the dog should recover quickly and look to you for guidance to what it is you do want. Becoming mopey makes me believe he is being over-corrected.

I would like to read about slapping, too, in regular daily interactions. Definitely not a normal action for me, and possibly a factor in bad reactions to hand-approaching-face.




PS
Lingering coldness/anger/resentment/isolation are not useful; the dog doesn't understand consequences beyond the ones that happen in the moment.

All JMO!

if this were my situation I would slap the wife for hitting the dog, Samantha hitting another human being is assault ...........

Chris well done Deb is 100% correct i have seen lots of handler aggressive dogs it starts out the handler lets the dog get by will growing at them without correction. dog becomes stronger then there is a battle.

Chris you could have said to your dog, daddy doesn't like you biting mommy , Bad dog , wait a minute i sorry i hurt your feeling by saying you were bad. you need a time out

or you could have called animal control since the dog bit your wife and drew blood and had him put to sleep.

Chris don't let the bleeding hearts get to you. you did the right thing if it was a stranger you would be a getting lawsuit

Chris, I have to say again that telling your wife to escalate in physical punishment "next time" is as irresponsible as telling her to alpha roll the dog. That is, IMHO, you are setting her up for a dangerous situation.

And as Steve mentioned, that's a battle she would have to win. QUOTE: You need to build that respect he needs to have for her without it being a fight because if you don't, she has to win the fight and that may not work out. END

I agree with much of John's post, actually. But not here: we're talking about the O.P.'s wife, who is not the primary handler.

Some dogs that bit people end up thinking

What happened? I was biting this lady and the next thing i know i'm in Dog Heaven (lol)

Thanks Connie. Your input is invaluable as always.

I am going to talk to my wife about some of the ideas in this thread, and get her to start tethering the dog when she's around the house and doing some basic OB with him.


CW

Connie it doesn't matter if who the primary handler is in the household. any dog that lives in the house should be at the oof the pack. the dog is a guest a dog to snap at any family is unacceptable no matter what the reason.

the problem with posting details is for example what a slap on the nose? to me tapping the dog on the nose. to someone else a slap is draw back a really whack him