Thank you Corgipower! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> What you said about enjoyment and military precision is absolutly correct!

I, too, am not a fan of every aspect of the AKC. But for those of us that do not have strong working dogs with high and hard drive, AKC obedience or other sports, such as tracking, herding, and agility, give us something fun, educational, and constructive to do with our dogs.

We've all said it before: a show-line dog generally makes a poor SchH dog. I will certainly agree that if your dog is capable of it, do schutzhund! But, if I remember correctly from another thread, Doyle's pup is of primarily show-lines (correct me if I'm wrong, Doyle). If he's not up to schutzhund, then AKC or UKC obedience would be a nice alternative. And there is no reason he can't do both.

Thanks,
Kali <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I will do both with my next dog(Working GSD) but Sch will be my primary goal.

Today I watched several dogs work in "protection" at a local Schutzhund club. While I enjoyed meeting some of the people and getting some reinforcement that I'm working my puppy well, I was not impressed.

It seems to me the the most fun part of Schutzhund would be the role of the helper. The Director of Training for this club was the helper (talked with him some) who appears about my age - a very young 63. He seemed to be really enjoying the role.

But I did not like what I saw re: the dogs. Some Shepherds and Rotts getting hyped up to hit the sleeve hard - and then come out with their eyes red and very hyper. That's it - hold and bark and then bit the sleeve. I did see some good obedience work in the field that I enjoyed.

Since so many of you have been encouraging, allow me to explain my thinking please.

When I started training my horses, my perspective was to show them whose boss. I've worked horses so hard they would stop and quit - one even dropped to the ground as a way of quitting (was OK though). Another got so frustrated with me he reared up and over on me while I was on his back. Another kicked at me with his back legs and missed my face by just a few inches. That's the way I was taught, be tough. I've learned ways to humble a fifteen hundred pound horse in 5 seconds. I'm saying this because I've gone that route and found it to be a stupid thing to do.

I brought my show mare home from the trainer and decided to do it myself. After learning a method of getting into the horses head rather than beating the @#%$ out of it, I through away all severe curb bits and replaced them with the most gentle snaffle bit I could find. I tossed out my severe, sharp spurs and completely stopped using my legs for cues - just used the reins. In a month, I had this mare making very precise responses to extremely subtle cues (e.g., move reins 1/2 inch and slightly shift my weight).

I found that exciting - to be able to give such subtle cues that no one could tell I gave them and have the horse respond very precisely.

Well, that's what I'm going to do with this pup.
I'm a very competitive person and want to compete with this pup later in areas that he will enjoy. Rather than train him in things he is not genetically programed for and therefore would probably not enjoy it (e.g., hard schutzhund bite work), I'm going to train him in areas that takes advantage of his genetics: intelligence, conformation and spirit. It seems to me that's AKC Obedience and perhaps agility. I'll be extremely proud if we can go to Utility and win some championships as a team. I like the idea of both him and me being graded on our performance. I'm very bonded to this pup! I also like the idea of him working hard in areas he will enjoy. The following comment is not intended to insult anyone - but frankly, I don't need this dog to be able to tear off someone's arm in order for me to think well of him or myself.

With that said, I'm first aiming for AKC Obedience. We'll see from there. Again, my thanks for all of your input and support. You have helped me think my way through this.

Doyle

Doyle, regardless of your choices, stay in touch with the board and try Judy Stricklands school in Kirkwood. At leats talk to them and explain what you want.

Doyle,

You sound like you really have thought this through and are making an educated decision for you and your dog based on your dog's strengths and weaknesses. It is so very important that we all realize that this is your dog we are talking about here and no one knows him better than you. I am pleased to hear you are not letting anyone pressure you into training a certain way or competing in a certain sport, but you are instead doing what you feel is best and will be most fun for your dog. You will enjoy a much richer relationship with your dog because of this. I am very happy for you.

Best of luck to you and your pup!
Kali

Doyle - your post on Schutzhund indicated a total lack of understanding of the sport. Sounds to me like you are back in your DUMB and DUMBER stage of horse training. It needs to be filed under the catagory of YOUR DON'T HAVE A CLUE about what you are talking about!!!!!!

The "most fun in Schutzhund" is not the helper - its than handler and his dog. If a dog is trained in drive he loves the work.

Fact is you made the right decision. Some people do not belong in the sport - my guess is you are one of them.

Ed,

You comments belong in the DUMBEST category. In case you have not noticed, there is a world out there beyond Schutzhund and your website.

Your attitude does NOT enhance the reputation of Schutzhund among potential newbees, it hurts it. You certainly are NOT a leader with that attitude.

How in the @#$% can you judge ANYTHING about me -you know NOTHING about me. If this wasn't so amusing, I would be annoyed.

Learn some tolerance Ed.

Doyle

Having just gone to watch my first SchH trial on Saturday night I can see Doyle's point to a certain extent. The thing that surprised me was the lack of control that was rewarded in the bite work. The dog that had the high protection score (96), didn't make a single clean bite/out. He bit on the bark and hold, he re-bit on every out that he made, and it took a minimum of 3 out commands for the dog to out. For what I am used to the trial would be broken in to several excercises, and for biting on the bark and hold the dog would have taken a 0 for the excercise and would have had a maximum score of 75 and would have lost points for each re-bite after an out and each multiple command. An example of what he did recieve point deductions for was during the B&H he turned his head when the handler started to come around the edge of the bild. She was wearing a "snow suit" that made noise when she walked, and the dog turned his head when he heard it as she was coming. A dog that showed much better control had point deductions for: Not sitting directly in front of the helper in the bark and hold and a false half step (his butt didn't leave the ground, but his front legs moved) after a false start by the helper on an escape. The dog scored an 88 in protection. It was also interesting to me that there is not a call off tested in the trial.

There also didn't seem to be much "joy" in the dogs during the bite work. They all seemed to be very stiff and almost hesitant in their motions. My guess is that all had been trained with strong compulsion because they seemed very concerned about the handler during both the obedience and protection routines. It wasn't what I expected by any stretch of the imagination. I have seen dogs trained in almost pure defense look happier in their work. The feeling I got is that the dogs, handler, and judge seemed much more concerned with correctness of form than correctness of getting the job done "properly". The other thing that was interesting was the change in the dogs when they came off the field. Once they were off the field they seemed to be very happy dogs, not a trace of the concern I saw in them on the field.

If I didn't have the background that I have I would have thought much like what Doyle is thinking. My wife came away with almost the same impression and we argued all the way home. The lack of joy in the dogs and the questionable control in many of the dogs gave her a very negative impression of the whole thing. Yes I understand it was a club trial and there were only 4 dogs that we were watching, but it didn't seem to me to be as impressive as several of the people that were knowledgable about the sport seemed to think. I am going to have to get a tape or two of some higher level trials before I can make a good evaluation.

Doyle,

At the age of your pup you will not see the total picture of the enjoyment the dogs recieve from doing bite work. Some of what you are commenting about the dogs comes from the dogs being trained in very high prey drive with little done to control the drives. One of the things that has bothered me with much of the training I have seen done is the lack of control when the dogs aren't working and the lack of balance in the drives of the dogs.

When your pup is a little older you may well find that he develops the "joy" in doing the bite work that is really fun for both the dog and handler. When many of the dogs I have worked with come in to the area they are going to work they are bouncing around because they are so excited about being able to work. I expect the the dog will understand the difference between when they are being threatened and when they are not. I expect them to respond to the threat and pay attention when the other dogs are being threatened but not respond to it. It provides a much different picture of the dog and the enjoyment of the work the dogs derive.

Wow, Richard, please don't judge the sport from what you saw this weekend!! That sounds like horrible training AND horrible judging. That high protection dog shouldn't have scored anywhere near a 96 if he made all those mistakes. However, you don't lose all the points for any exercise unless you totally fail to show that exercise. So the H&B, being worth 5 points, would only earn perhaps 3.5 pts if the dog stayed attentive to the helper and barked well. The nips and looking at the handler's approach would cause deductions, but not a lose of all available points. However, any time you need three commands to out, you're WAAAYYYYY out of the V category. If you don't mind saying, who was the judge?

Some comments on Doyle and Richards posts. First - Doyle - I judge you from what you write. Feel free to do the same for me. If you don't like what I write - take your opinions somewhere else because what you write reflects a lack of experience, a lack of knowledge, and a closed minded arrogant attitude.

I do tolerate people who lack knowledge but show a genuine interest in learning I don't tolerate pig headed stupidity. Frankly I think your comments on the sport hurt Schutzhund a lot more than my web site. Can I make myself clearer?

Richard - welcome to Schutzhund. One of the most frustrating things new people need to get past is a club trial. In many many cases it is not a good representation of the sport. Going to the nationals or BDP is a better way to form an opinion on the sport. Here is why:

1- New people do not know how point are awarded - or taken away. How you think an exercise should be scored may have nothing to do with the rules of the sport.

2- Unfortunately point deductions will also vary from judge to judge - this should not be the case but it is.

3- Then there are bad judges - if indeed you saw a dog that required 3 command to OUT and did the rebites that you say - this dog did not deserve a 96 in protection. This is a case where a judge should be reported to the judges committee - WAIT MARK PABILSKI is the head judge - never mind, you would be wasting your breath.

4- there are more bad trainers in Schutzhund that there are good trainers. It's always a shame when you know a little something about training dogs to go to a club trial and watch dogs go through the motions and dogs that hate being on the field. It is too bad but this is something that will always be part of the sport.

5- I may be wrong but it seems that the sport of Schutzhund gets more people who have never held a leash. It also seems to attract some unsavory characters that don't hang around for long.

The important thing is that the people who don't train in drive will not make it to the top of nationals and they do not honestly reflect the sport.

I sell some of the old BSP (Bundessieger Prufung in Germany) tapes for $20.00 - take a look at these videos and then you will see what the sport is all about.

I also agree with Lee - who was the judge. If you will not write it in an open forum - send it in a PM.