Also, Mondo is becoming much better outside the house, but worse at the house. If they are both fear, why would that be? In both cases, the object of his fear leaves, so why doesn't he get more aggressive away like he did at home?

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

.... fear-related territorial aggression ....

But regardless, desensitizing work and NILIF would be my prescription.

The dog needs great basic ob and strong pack leadership and pack structure. All dogs do. It goes double for a dog like this.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Ignore is good. When you post on a public board, you take your chances and you choose and use what's helpful to you.

I know; I usually haven't had this many problems.

 Quote:

The dog isn't guarding the house in the sense of dominant territorial aggression. This is a typical misconception, along the lines of "the dog was protecting me," which is almost never the case.

The dog shows classic fear-related territorial aggression, in my opinion; the number of obvious fear-related and anxiety-related events related already make it a given, to me, along with the behavior during an "interloper" incident.

So you don't think a dog could lose its fear after a few incidents where nothing bad happened to it when attacked somebody? Why is he less aggressive outside the yard with experience, but more aggressive inside, if it's not partially territorial? Why does he run out of the garage when he hears people in the yard, when he could easily keep hiding in there, if it's not partially territorial? He doesn't try to run after people outside the yard; he mostly ignores them. I understand there is a component of fear, at least there was, but to keep saying there is no territorial element just seems to completely ignore what he is doing, and one of a dog's most basic instincts.

 Quote:

Fear-related territorial aggression doesn't come from confidence or a sense of security or from perception of a strong and protective pack leader.

So what are my other dogs feeling/doing when they bark at people? Having dominant territorial aggresssion? They aren't having fear. Why have my other dogs not become fearful without a good pack-leader?

 Quote:

Desensitizing for me encompasses correctly-done marker work (a real confidence-builder!) and focus on me. It has benefits galore, including a much better owner/dog bond, reliable basic ob under distraction, and a dog who looks to me for the appropriate reaction to a potential trigger.

Like I said, even with very bad desensitization techniques, he got desensitized to people outside the yard. I don't think that is going to be hard to do, and may actually be about done. I just have to find some people to walk by, see if anybody seems to scare him anymore.

Sigh...I know I wasn't supposed to ask all those questions, but we seem to be talking about what he is feeling and why he is feeling it again. I'm not arguing about training, obviously I came here to learn about that, but if somebody is telling me something that seems completely different from what I'm observing, I can't help but wonder why they are saying that.

"Guard" is just a word that lay-people use to mean the dog tried to stop the person from whatever it was doing; they don't put much thought into the differentiation between dog emotional subtleties or intent when they say that word. Dogs "guard" houses. If you don't think people should use the word like that, you'll have to get the definition changed to only the professional dog trainer version. Whatever causes them to "guard" houses, it's not always fear, because a lot do it when they are not fearful. Therefore, Mondo probably has that instinct too, and it's partially responsible for what he's doing at the house. If that's not true, I'm just too stupid to do this, and I'll have to say thanks for trying to help, but once you hit an intellectual wall, there's no use banging your head against it.

 Quote: Kelly

 Quote: Rovena Kessinger

I think there are some nutty people here who think only PhD's in animal psychology should be allowed near a dog, but I think the majority are probably well-meaning and knowledgeable.

I do think it's very, very difficult to get past all these assumptions and jumping to conclusions (like you did at the beginning of your post) and the Aha! moments that prove I am a delusional person after all. Plus I keep being accused of things I already admitted, hence the disclaimer.

Honestly, flippant remarks like this will get you nowhere.

You need 2 things. Pack structure and Obedience. Both need to be solid. Look them up, I am in no mood to deal with more flippant remarks and senseless attempts at humor from you.

OK.

Connie and everybody, thanks for your help. I think you've given me a start, and I've got some reading and stuff to do. I don't think I'm going to do very well in public here, so I'll save the moderators the trouble of having to ban me by not posting anymore. If it's OK I may PM you at some point if I have a specific question about training. You can tell me to get lost, and I will understand.

You don't have to bother answering any of my endless questions, and I apologize again for wasting peoples' time.

You guys are great with quick responses and obvious desire to do good for dogs, putting a lot of effort into trying to help.

I find it helpful to think of the triggers that arouse my dog as "sudden environmental change". That can be anything: a seagull flying overhead, the jingle of dog tags from around a blind corner, the flapping of a cape as someone approaches... etc. With shepherds, they have been bred to react to these changes with fear - that is, suspicion and perceiving any sudden environmental change, as a threat. My dog has high guarding drive. In a sense, even though he is a big, confident dog, he is also a fearful dog. His temperament is to have fast, strong reactions to things, rather than taking changes in stride and calmly, methodically examining them to determine if there is, in actual fact, a threat.

I'm still wondering what breed your dog is. I have found breed understanding to be very helpful in figuring out what is motivating my dog, and thus, what is going to be a positive, functional reward for wanted behaviour.

If you could have seen the difference between the first time (several feet away from the man, barking but moving back and forth ....and the last time ..... I think you might think the same thing.

I would think that the dog perceived that it "worked." So it is now his successful fall-back.



"I don't know why people question my motives."

Possibly because suggestions (from experienced trainers and handlers) are answered with "yes but."

"If it's OK I may PM you at some point if I have a specific question about training."

Specific questions about training are very welcome and will garner lots of response here on the board!

This tends to be a serious forum when it comes to dog training. It's just the nature of the posters. Yes, we have fun, but when we precives something to be an issue, we will call it like we see it. Seriously, most long time posters here are on a semi-professional level (or greater) when it comes to dog training.

So if you want the help of people who know an awful lot about what they're saying, you kinda need to take the flavor of the forum along with the advice.

But it's the internet. We cannot tell when a person is serious, is joking, is stringing us along, or precisely what their motives are. Since we all have seen problems that result from certain issues, we will answer accordingly when we precieve an issue. Because when things go wrong it's almost always an innocent animal or human that pays the price.

FWIW, I had a person here tell me that I shouldn't keep one of my dogs when I first started posting. It's the internet. They didn't see the whole situation, only saw what I was posting drew conclusions. I knew the advice, while well intended, was not taking my whole situation into consideration. So I explained myself more clearly and then just kept working with my dog.

If you want to learn more about what your dog is saying through his body language, I strongly sugest reading Patricia McConnell's book "The Other End of The Leash". A lot of people (including long time dog owners) have no clue about canine body language and behavior.

Other than that, I really feel like this is going in circles...

 Quote: Jenny Arntzen

I find it helpful to think of the triggers that arouse my dog as "sudden environmental change". That can be anything: a seagull flying overhead, the jingle of dog tags from around a blind corner, the flapping of a cape as someone approaches... etc. With shepherds, they have been bred to react to these changes with fear - that is, suspicion and perceiving any sudden environmental change, as a threat. My dog has high guarding drive. In a sense, even though he is a big, confident dog, he is also a fearful dog. His temperament is to have fast, strong reactions to things, rather than taking changes in stride and calmly, methodically examining them to determine if there is, in actual fact, a threat.

Mondo is not like that. The only thing that freaked him out besides people was once when a dog (a friendly one we know) ran out of the woods and surprised all of us, and he ran a short distance til he realized what it is. That's what I've been trying to say--he's not neurotic, or whatever you call it.

 Quote:

I'm still wondering what breed your dog is. I have found breed understanding to be very helpful in figuring out what is motivating my dog, and thus, what is going to be a positive, functional reward for wanted behaviour.

He's a german shepherd/lab/boxer/schnauzer, according to genetic tests, and various people guessed various parts of that, so it may be accurate.

 Quote: Mara Jessup

Other than that, I really feel like this is going in circles...

I have that book, and I'll read it. This has all been very interesting.

Yes we are; I'll come back when I have a very specific question.

Thanks again.

It's the information here & not always the delivery that is important to heed.

A number of us (myself included) have had seriously fear aggressive dogs. It is not a fun thing to deal with. Not for the owner & not for the dogs. It is a terrible place/state of mind to be in for the dog. The potential liability that owning that kind of dog is very serious. No matter how careful & experienced you are in dealing with this issue....things CAN & DO happen. A 50,60,70lb dog going forward agressively out of fear is a very serious matter to deal with. When these dogs 'wigg out' they are mentally blind, def & crazy. They care nothing for or about you or your safety. You can be injured during one of these episodes....pulled to the ground & dragged even bitten if the dog redirects to you. The fear is NOT something that is EVER erradicated. It can be managed, desentizied to some degree etc but it is always there & given the 'right' trigger can reappear at any time. Their default is to lash out in fear.

Owning a dog like that it is not a place that I care to revisit. JM 2 cents FWIW.