Fred Hassen wrote: we certainly wouldn't be taking the police officers dogs in front of them

***** What police officer’s dogs have you trained Fred??? I hope you’re not talking about Cesar, the Las Vegas Marshall’s dog!!! Do the local police in Las Vegas, where you’re based, use your methods???

Fred wrote: I would suggest observing a person with a collar working a number of dogs first, and would also observe the person's own dogs for their attitudes. This will tell more about the instructor than any writing would.

***** I’ll agree with the first part of that statement but the second is waaaay off base. Too many people have purchased already trained dogs and passed them off as their own. You can’t tell a thing by watching a person with their own dog unless you know that he’s trained the dog himself. The best way to judge a persons's skill with an Ecollar is to watch him work the dogs that show up at his seminars, dogs he's never seen before.

Oh my! This could become interesting.

***** What police officer’s dogs have you trained Fred??? I hope you’re not talking about Cesar, the Las Vegas Marshall’s dog!!!


Great....I wasn't aware that you had seen "Caesar". Little history before we begin a good training discussion. The head of the Marshall's department (Bill Fraser) had been one of my ecollar clients. He came to me as a favor and asked me to help Butch with his dog. Mr. Fraser is very aware of the amount of business that our company does, and he is a very nice man. The handler's name is Butch Martin. Butch is really a great guy, and we took to him right away, and are still great friends. I do have to say that Butch has a very good take on what we do. He has spent quite a number of hours with us and with our club........all at no cost. Donn Yarnall, who happens to be very knowledgeable in the field of police training, who I have had on my radio show, but have never had the pleasure to see work in person gave an initial training after we had done a great amount of work with Butch. I believe that Donn now instructs the units. I believe that people bid on stuff like that, but I'm not exactly sure.......we have enough day to day operations to not be entirely educated on how people get these jobs, but from what I've heard......Donn is more than qualified.....lots of years at LAPD etc, etc. Anyway, Butch was like a little kid at christmas time when Donn evaluated Butch's dog on the first day and said if I'm not mistaken "This is a SERIOUS police dog". Butch was the only one that day to go through all of the assigned tasks, and Donn gave the dog an extremely high rating. I've spoken with Butch on a few occasions since then, and Mr. Yarnall doesn't seem to have any problems with the dog's performance. Now......what were the problems that you seem to have about the marshall's dog. Your tone seems to be a little like his dog is a joke or something. What did you observe to lead you to believe this?? I assumed that Mr. Yarnall could certainly see an outstanding police dog for all the years that he's been doing it, and I certainly thought the dog was outstanding, and certainly thought Butch had a tremendous take on what we do, and didn't see any problem with his handling. Butch also has an outstanding knowledge of the collar as well, so I'm certainly not going to blame it on Butch being unable to maintain it, and I can't see the dog slipping back with Butch's knowledge, and all the time that he has spent with us. Are you downgrading the dog and handler because of it being a 'marshall's dog'?? Does Mr. Yarnall think this dog is trash now or something??? I certainly find that hard to believe. What is your issue with this dog??

Fred Hassen wrote: Great....I wasn't aware that you had seen "Caesar".

***** Fred I haven’t seen Caesar but I’ve had some lengthy conversations with people who have.

Fred Hassen wrote: I believe that Donn now instructs the units.

***** Yes, he does.

Fred Hassen wrote: Butch was like a little kid at christmas time when Donn evaluated Butch's dog on the first day and said if I'm not mistaken "This is a SERIOUS police dog".

***** Such a comment refers to the dog’s basic temperament and his training.

Fred Hassen wrote: Now......what were the problems that you seem to have about the marshall's dog.

***** Donn spent a short time with the dog and then left for a month. During that month Butch worked with you and your approach. When Donn returned the dog was balking badly. That means he wouldn’t leave the handler’s side to go out for a bite. His bite was weak and he was anticipating the out. These are all signs of too much compulsion, the very problem that I’ve discussed that your approach might lead to with PSD’s and SAR dogs.

Fred Hassen wrote: Your tone seems to be a little like his dog is a joke or something.

***** Your interpretation of my comments is off base. I’ve never said or hinted that the dog was a joke.

Fred Hassen wrote: Butch also has an outstanding knowledge of the collar as well, so I'm certainly not going to blame it on Butch being unable to maintain it, and I can't see the dog slipping back with Butch's knowledge, and all the time that he has spent with us.

***** Since you say that Butch has such a good understanding of your approach I certainly can’t fault him for the problem. So I must place the blame with the approach.

Fred Hassen wrote: Are you downgrading the dog and handler because of it being a 'marshall's dog'?? Does Mr. Yarnall think this dog is trash now or something??? I certainly find that hard to believe. What is your issue with this dog??

***** My read of this situation has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the fact that the dog is in the service of the Marshall’s Office. Donn has fixed the problems that I mention and the dog is now fine. I have no issue with the dog, only your approach as applied to PSD’s or SAR dogs. I still say that what you do with pets is AMAZING and PHENOMENAL.

***** But there are problems with putting high levels of compulsion on PSD’s or SAR dogs, no matter whether those high levels come from a leash and correction collar, a harsh tone of voice or an Ecollar.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Lou Castle:
Fred Hassen wrote: Great....I wasn't aware that you had seen "Caesar".

***** Fred I haven’t seen Caesar but I’ve had some lengthy conversations with people who have.

Fred Hassen wrote: I believe that Donn now instructs the units.

***** Yes, he does.

Fred Hassen wrote: Butch was like a little kid at christmas time when Donn evaluated Butch's dog on the first day and said if I'm not mistaken "This is a SERIOUS police dog".

***** Such a comment refers to the dog’s basic temperament and his training.

Fred Hassen wrote: Now......what were the problems that you seem to have about the marshall's dog.

***** Donn spent a short time with the dog and then left for a month. During that month Butch worked with you and your approach. When Donn returned the dog was balking badly. That means he wouldn’t leave the handler’s side to go out for a bite. His bite was weak and he was anticipating the out. These are all signs of too much compulsion, the very problem that I’ve discussed that your approach might lead to with PSD’s and SAR dogs.

Fred Hassen wrote: Your tone seems to be a little like his dog is a joke or something.

***** Your interpretation of my comments is off base. I’ve never said or hinted that the dog was a joke.

Fred Hassen wrote: Butch also has an outstanding knowledge of the collar as well, so I'm certainly not going to blame it on Butch being unable to maintain it, and I can't see the dog slipping back with Butch's knowledge, and all the time that he has spent with us.

***** Since you say that Butch has such a good understanding of your approach I certainly can’t fault him for the problem. So I must place the blame with the approach.

Fred Hassen wrote: Are you downgrading the dog and handler because of it being a 'marshall's dog'?? Does Mr. Yarnall think this dog is trash now or something??? I certainly find that hard to believe. What is your issue with this dog??

***** My read of this situation has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the fact that the dog is in the service of the Marshall’s Office. Donn has fixed the problems that I mention and the dog is now fine. I have no issue with the dog, only your approach as applied to PSD’s or SAR dogs. I still say that what you do with pets is AMAZING and PHENOMENAL.

***** But there are problems with putting high levels of compulsion on PSD’s or SAR dogs, no matter whether those high levels come from a leash and correction collar, a harsh tone of voice or an Ecollar.

Thanks Lou....I will inform Butch of your comments, and I know that there were a roomful of people when Donn had the dog performing in front of everyone. I will be sure to let the people in the room know that the comments are coming from you. Bill Fraser also was invited to see "Caesar's" performance in person, and I will also let Mr. Fraser know of your public comments about the dog lacking to go. Thanks for your comments. People have always been present when Butch's dog demonstrated anything before they took the dog entirely. We both know your intent here.

***** Fred this is really quite simple. Since I’ve been in law enforcement for over 25 years and K9’s for over 20, I feel an allegiance to police officers and K9 handlers that you’ll never know. I’d hate for one of them to come out of your training with a dog that won’t search any more, or not as well, just to get good obedience.

***** It’s my opinion and that of several other well known people in the field of PSD’s and SAR, that the high levels of compulsion that you use focus a dog’s attention back on the handler. When his attention is there, he’s not the purest hunting animal that he can be.

***** If the scent problem is simple any dog can work it. But when the going gets tough, if the dog isn’t 100% focused on the job, he’ll miss scent. For SAR that means people die. For PSD’s it means that a crook goes home instead of to jail. It could mean that a murder kills again, a rapist repeats or a police officer gets killed.

***** I’ve said repeatedly that I’d love for you to prove me wrong. Instead of keeping up this “he said she said” debate why don’t you just point me to a few SAR dogs and PSD’s that you’ve successfully trained with your methods and are NOT having any scent problems. I could go take a look at them and change my mind if they were doing the work.

***** Please supply some names and contact information.

Fred Hassen has expended quite a bit of energy in futile attempts to discredit me here and in several other locations on the Internet. Why, I’m not sure, but in any case, somehow I missed his post dated July 29th.

Fred Hassen wrote: We still like to put our dogs up for people to see, and they are all self raised and trained. I don't know if yours were personally raised and trained, or whether someone else trained them first.......but in either case, I've seen them

***** The only dogs of mine that Fred has seen are two of my pets. He’s never seen any PSD’s that I’ve trained.

Fred wrote: I was a bit dissapointed to hear that you were turned down as a dealer, but did manage to pull some strings and come up as a 'subdealer' through another recognized dealer.

***** LOL. I was turned down as a dealer because there is a TriTronics dealer within 35 miles of me. I don’t know what a “subdealer” is and in any case I offer the same prices that you do and include free 2nd day air shipping.

I dont want to get involved in this argument but I must say that most of the information that I have used re collars came from Lou and it works,so who is right.