Donn,

Since your new video is based on training PSDs, would you recommend it for someone who just wants to learn more about using an e-collar? Do you consider your guidance system too complicated for someone who has used an e-collar for about a year, and has learned totally from the written word? How would you adapt this system to the use of a TT pro model, if that is possible? The only video I've seen is the TT Basic Training, so I'm trying to figure out which video would be most beneficial to me at this stage. Would this new system be very applicable to training advanced obedience for competition? I'd imagine a good system can be applied to any kind of training, but I'd appreciate your opinions on this.

LOU and DONN, where are your replies???...please don't leave us hanging.

This discussion is great, Sharron has some of the same questions I do and I'm finding the info very helpful.

I would think that would create a clingy dog as Lou mentioned.

Please address this in particular.

Thanks.
Magnus

Originally posted by sharon g:
Donn,

Since your new video is based on training PSDs, would you recommend it for someone who just wants to learn more about using an e-collar? Do you consider your guidance system too complicated for someone who has used an e-collar for about a year, and has learned totally from the written word? How would you adapt this system to the use of a TT pro model, if that is possible? The only video I've seen is the TT Basic Training, so I'm trying to figure out which video would be most beneficial to me at this stage. Would this new system be very applicable to training advanced obedience for competition? I'd imagine a good system can be applied to any kind of training, but I'd appreciate your opinions on this.

Donn is suffering from computer meltdown right now and unable to get on the Forum.

Re his video: the only reason that PSD’s are used in the video is those dogs are the ones that Donn has access to when the video was being shot. Those handlers had been taught the guidance system and how to use the Dogtra collars by Donn, since he has their maintenance training contract.

But there’s nothing magic about police dogs. The technique will work on any ol’ dog.

The guidance system is NOT just a system for using Dogtra Ecollars. It works with any brand of Ecollar, but not as well, AND leash and training collar methods.

As far as adapting the system to someone who’s using another brand of Ecollar that doesn’t have the continuously variable stimulation, which is anyone using anything but the Dogtras, LOL, it’s simple. Where someone using a Dogtra would turn down the stimulation, the person using the other brand would shut off the stimulation.

Here’s where I say that the other collars will only give you an approximation of the guidance system. The dog who’s wearing the Dogtra Ecollar will still be getting stimmed, albeit at a lower level and will therefore be getting information from the handler. The dog wearing the OBEC (Other Brand of Ecollar) will not. Well actually he is, but it’s not the right information. Normally we keep the stimulation on until the desired behavior has been completed, for example, when the dog has completed the sit. And so that dog will be a bit confused the stimulation comes on again.

Say, for example you’re teaching the recall. The dog is 25 feet from you and you give him a stimulation and guide him back to you so that he can come closer and thereby shut off the stimulation. With the Dogtra Ecollar as he approaches, you’re turning down the stimulation level. If he veers off, or shoots past you, you turn the stimulation level back up, JUST A LITTLE. He’ll learn very quickly that heading anywhere other than by your side brings discomfort. If you’re doing this with an OBEC, all you can do is to turn off the stimulation when he’s headed towards you. If he veers off or goes past you, you can turn it back on. But there’s no guidance there. He’ll get it eventually, but meanwhile his head won’t be as clear, because the communication isn’t as clear.

I like to think of this system as being more versatile in the same way that a dimmer light switch is more versatile. You can turn it all the way up for reading or other close work, or turn it to whatever level is appropriate. With a standard light switch, it’s either on or it’s off.

I think that the guidance system is adaptable to any type of work that you want to do; protection, hunting, bird dogs, OB. Sport, or anything else.

The TT basic video comes with the Ecollars so you should already have that. Donn’s video is just about the least expensive that’s out there. Watch it a few times at least. You’ll get more out of it every time.

Lou, OMG this means I've been using an approximation of the guidance system all along! I really am good about guiding my dog, and giving him the benefit of the doubt. 'Think I'll just ignore that other list for a while, and start going over the original articles that got me started. I want Donn's video so bad!!! Maybe next week. Thanks for answering our questions. I'm sure it can be a pain sometimes, and I do appreciate it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Glad to know Donn's video is appropriate for most. It'll be my next video for sure. Thanks!

 Quote:

Originally posted by sharon g:
Lou, OMG this means I've been using an approximation of the guidance system all along! I really am good about guiding my dog, and giving him the benefit of the doubt. 'Think I'll just ignore that other list for a while, and start going over the original articles that got me started.

Sharon the basic video that comes with the Ecollars gives you part of the guidance system. The part that allows you to use the Ecollar to push the dog in the direction you want him to go.

But none of them discuss the drive satisfaction that’s really at the heart of that system.

Remember that most of those doing Ecollar videos, BD (Before Donn) come from retriever backgrounds. Most of them use extremely high level of compulsion. That translates, for most of them, to high stimulation levels, and we’ve seen where that can take you.

The guidance system isn’t for a rank beginner unless they’re willing to really learn a lot about drive theory, how it applies and how to use it to their advantage. But for someone who’s been using drive theory for awhile and understands the drives and how they work, it’s much simpler.

As for ignoring that other list, instead I'd suggest that you ask similar questions, especially about your dog's "nervous" behavior, there. It's always good to find out what everyone thinks.

Hi Lou,
The "drive satisfaction" is what I was asking about on the other topic about using low stim to polish behavior. I have read a lot about drives on this board, etc., but don't really know how to apply this knowledge to my Sheltie and obedience. Do you mean I should ask that other list why my dog is jumping and acting nervous? I'm a coward, but I'll do it.

Hi Lou,
The "drive satisfaction" is what I was asking about on the other topic about using low stim to polish behavior. I have read a lot about drives on this board, etc., but don't really know how to apply this knowledge to my Sheltie and obedience. Do you mean I should ask that other list why my dog is jumping and acting nervous? I'm a coward, but I'll do it.

Originally posted by sharon g:
Do you mean I should ask that other list why my dog is jumping and acting nervous? I'm a coward, but I'll do it.

Sharon I think that you should ask advice from anyone that may provide you with an answer. I don’t have all of them and if anyone, anywhere, anytime tells you that he does, RUN. RUN LIKE THE WIND.

I’ve already told you what I’d think they’d say, but I won’t pretend to speak for them. They may tell you something different. What do you have to lose???

A coward dies a thousand deaths. A hero dies but one!!!

Lou,
I'm just trying to learn to be a better dog trainer. I don't ask anyone if I should go to the restroom when I need to go. Neither do I need to ask someone if I should change my approach if it is causing my dog to jump and be anxious and nervous. I have a darling little Sheltie, and all I want is to walk into the obedience ring and "knock 'em dead". I'm a novice at e-collar use, but like to think I have a brain and a little common sense. I read your reply on the other topic, but can't answer because my webtv won't load the entire page. Can't even re-read your long post. I wanted to know if Donn's video and the guidance system would actually be of some practical value to me and my little ob Sheltie. You said yes, but went on to say it's all about drive satisfaction. So now I want to know how drive satisfaction can be applied to me (a simple little novice) and my obedience dog. I believe Nick asked basically the same question. I understand how it applies to SAR and PSD's. I'll never have one. I'm getting tired of eating my heart out for a Dogtra collar and a video that I may not even need. You're getting as good at evading questions as that other trainer.

Lou,
First, please accept my apology. I'm sorry. You're right, you didn't deserve that. No my webtv isn't your responsibility, but it adds greatly to the communication problem. I was trying to explain why I was trying to answer your posts from both topics. See, I can't cut & paste like on a computer. You take each thought, and answer it separately, which is great. But I'm lumping everything that was said over a period of time all together, and trying to respond to it. For example, today I read your long post, couldn't reread it, and forgot half the things it said before I tried to reply. Man, these people are going to think I'm a complete wacco! For example, I forgot that you did answer Nick's question. Then when I could read it again, I realized my error. You have spent hours trying to answer my stupid questions. Anyway, I'm sorry.