I wasnt attacking you. Its my opinion that alot of people misuse the collar and mess up good dogs. I have seen this with Military and civilian K9 officers. If the battery goes dead on there collar there like ok enough training. I wasnt calling you out. I think you see my side of the story thats all I was trying to get across, I see your side too. Someone who is not a vetran in dog training I feel should not use it, unless someone with alot of time with the collar should be there to supervise the training. I hope you didnt take anything I said personally, I just dont want to see good dogs mistreated.

Thanks for making that clear Austin. Folks Austin and I spoke off the forum and he explained that like me, he’s occasionally taken as “a little too intense.” LOL. He responded as he did because he genuinely cares about the dogs and I can’t fault him for that. I’ve been there myself.

My clients, some who have little experience with Ecollars, easily pick up the method that I use. They are able to learn the theory and apply it.

I can attest that Lou has personally showed me how succesfully use the e-collar with my rottweiler. I have never heard any vocalization of pain using Lou's methods. In fact, the only way I know the thing is working is because my dog will give a little head shake. It doesn't hurt him like when I put the pinch collar on him. I really think the prong is a good tool but, I do think the dog experiences pain with them. Not just mild discomfort like with the e-collar.

Austin, I think your ideas and perceptions are correct. I have seen police K9 screwed up with the use of e-collars and don’t like to see good dogs ruined either. Training dogs requires knowledge, skill, and effort.

Oh no.....I'm back...LOL

If you want anything done correctly..it takes all of the things Alan mentioned...however, it takes no more skill to learn how to use a ecollar than ANY other tool in dog training! You can wreck a good dog with a clicker if you worked at it. I don't see folks jumping all over that one. I can hand a dog on a chock collar till it dies, yet most trainers don't think twice about putting it on a dog and letting people use them.

I just spent 3 days out in LA teaching at the LA Police Canine Associations annual seminar. I spent all 3 of the days teaching ecollar work along w/ Officer Horn of Las Vegas Metro PD. We heard almost every anti-ecollar comment from handlers who had been told this crap from some who perhaps hasn't seen a ecollar in 15 years. BTW, all LV Metro dogs wear ecollars for training and deployments. As do LAPD, and several others who were there. None of their dogs screamed in pain. Not one was a weak timid dog afraid of a "out" command. And they were all plenty social and friendly.

I had th pleasure of working w/ a LA Shreiffs handler who told me they had only used the collar to get the dog to "out and that they had to use it on a 5 High. Is this the handler fault...no, he's NOT a trainer. After a few short sessions, the dog was "outing" on a 2 low....hmmmmm....strange...the dog must have learned to fight through a 5 high, yet performs on a 2 low.....interesting....and trust me..this is one TOUGH SERIOUS dog! He went at me hard and left both of my biceps purple under the suit jacket....and he was as social as can be as well.

Now...that being said, this handler in a short amount of time, learned how to use the collar. Learned how to better work his dog, and managed without a great deal of work or needed skill to work the remote. I don't think pushing the button is that difficult or requires the split second perfect timing so many like to believe. The handler how to use a toll the right way and walked away happy and with a better outlook on his dog....but then again...it was the evil ecollar destroying his bond, being lazy, taking a short cut....please! This guy worked really hard with this dog..as did we. The collar allowed us to solve some problems we probably could not have solved as quickly or as easily, with less stress I might add than any other tool.

Before the anti-ecollar folks jump on me here...let me say I do not only train w/ ecollars. In fact the #1, #2, and #3 Police K-9's in my state...and the #2 overall team at last years Las Vegas trials (finishing only behind the home team) have never had an ecollar on any of them. If the tool is needed, use it. If you don't find you need it...don't, very simple!

To bash a tool a or a trainer who uses it correctly without proper knowledge of either one is a waste of time. I don't blame the car when some drunk crashes into someone on the way home....do you?

Josh, I agree with what you have to say but your analogy about the LA Sheriffs handler indicates to me there must be some knowledge and skill involved. That’s why you spent 3 days teaching them, wasn’t it??? I don’t think anyone is bashing the tool or the trainer that uses it properly, the issue is the knowledge, skill, and experience to use it properly.

Actually Alan, we worked with him for about 20 mins on the first day, and about 20 mins on the second day...that was it. You are correct that it takes knowledge to do anything correctly. I just find that when you bring a ecollar in, it becomes the most dangerous tool in training. No one ever makes that big a deal about any other tool than the ecollar. If it was ANY other collar, choke, prong, flat or even a clicker...we wouldn't have any of these post. In fact there was a Sch person there watching who offered a "sharpened prong" which I found more offensive than if I had seen the dog hit with a 5 high once or twice! Like anything, blame the human using the tool, not the tool.

Josh, the point is it took someone with expertise to show him how to use it properly. Sometimes less is more but then it takes the knowledge to know when and how. I think the same discussions could be had with regard to a sharpened pinch collar. So what makes the e-collar so controversial???? Ease of use??? Easy on the dog??? Negative reinforcement????

Alan,

How is that different than any other correction tool? In improper hands they will all ruin a dog. Including a flat collar. It may be easier with an e-collar, but I would bet it is just as easy with a prong, or a slip collar.

Richard, good question, how is it different?? Seems it is not the tool, they can all be misused. That leaves the operator. So what is the controversy??? Easier to ruin the dog you say??? That may answer the question about ease of use but I don’t think so. What about Negative reinforcement??? Timimg???