"... down is down till you give a release. just be careful of younger dog that forget there in down, just takes a reminder or two."

I'm not sure what you meant by "younger dog."



The combo of "younger dog" and "forgetting he's in a down" makes me a little worried about a puppy in a long down. For me, a long down is a lot shorter for a puppy.

I know that's a tad off topic, but I'd hate to be misunderstood and have folks think that I, at least, was saying that a young puppy should be subjected to drive-squashing long downs of 30 minutes. JMO!

In fact, I'd love it if there could be some discussion of the care about drive and training eagerness in a puppy in the context of the long down.

Connie,

Getting a puppy to down is a big deal and worthy of excited praise.

For my part I'm delighted by seconds, to minute, to minutes. Each time at the release I am over-the-top with enthusiasm and praise.

Usually the puppy starts to get it and focuses on me seemingly wanting to receive its reward. It is neat but not different than most train reward stuff.

What I work to with an older dog is different than a younger one. Attention spans and maturity are factors to consider when working with any dog but especially so with a puppy.

And what seems in stone on Monday is gone on Tuesday, and then you start over with a puppy. Consistency, and play praise seems to work wonders.

It seems to me that the longer you down a younger dog the more it might seem like a 'punishment' given the enthusiasm levels of young dogs. I conclude a session with a longer down but end it with huge praise just for the sake of praise and play at the conclusion of any session.

I do not mean to imply the exclusion of play in training just trying to talk about stuff.

Ah, yes. That was what I was hoping other folks meant, too.




"Getting a puppy to down is a big deal and worthy of excited praise.

For my part I'm delighted by seconds, to minute, to minutes. Each time at the release I am over-the-top with enthusiasm and praise.

Usually the puppy starts to get it and focuses on me seemingly wanting to receive its reward. It is neat but not different than most train reward stuff.

What I work to with an older dog is different than a younger one. Attention spans and maturity are factors to consider when working with any dog but especially so with a puppy.""



I'd hate for this crucial point to be lost! Thanks!

Nicely put Mike and I'm with you on guys especially the puppy's.

And Connie said it earlier
" It is done VERY gradually. Adding time & distance over time. Never at the same time."

 Quote: Joe Waddington

Nicely put Mike and I'm with you on guys especially the puppy's.

And Connie said it earlier
" It is done VERY gradually. Adding time & distance over time. Never at the same time."

Well, I was quoting Anne.

But that's OK. I'll take the credit!

Ann's not going to like that...........

I use different terms for different applications.
"Go lay down" means go wherever you want (in the room/yard)but don't be bother me now. I don't require any great time with that and if they break after a few mins, so be it.
"Platz" means hit the deck fast and now! That competition command is expected to be followed till I say other wise.
"Wait" is Mike's version of hang loose but don't go anywhere from where your at now. I often use "wait" if they are getting to far ahead of me in the woods.
"Stay" is a requirement in AKC competition be it a hand or voice command. I use a hand signal. In Schutzhund it's a loss of points for a double command.
Time and distance in ANY application are the easiest things to add in training IF the dog truly understands the command you gave (down, sit). It's just a matter of making both time and distance "random". Our dogs have a way better body clock then we do. Get lazy in that "random" time/distance and they gotcha!

No Joe...I'm not upset with Connie. We think & train along the same lines & often quote each other.

I agree 100% with what Mike just stated & also Bob. It is often difficult to explain exactly what & how we do what we do on line. And often we do things so automatically that, at least me, it is hard to go back & break down each & every step that I do to explain to someone what & how I work with a dog day to day.

I did not mean to have anyone think that in my post about my dogs being in a down for almost an hour on the field while I was talking to the detective & news crew was a formal down. Yes, they were placed in a down & I expected them to stay there, but it was a relaxed down. Not what I would call an formal competition down in which my dogs will lay with high alert all tucked up under themselves, heads high & their eyes & ears pricked toward me anticipating my relaese command. They were allowed to relax but stay put...no creaping or wiggling around. Also these dogs were 4 & 6 years old. NOT PUPPIES!

Putting too much pressure of ANY kind, espescially with pushing training too hard or too fast will surly kill the drive & fun of training out of a pup. Each dog is an individual & needs to be trained with that in mind. What one dog may be able to do at 18 months another may not be able to do until 2 or more. You need to be VERY careful with trianing pups. It should always be fun for them & leaving them wanting more. I also NEVER use correction of any kind with a pup or young dogs. They are always given the benefit of the doubt. It way down the road before I ever consider correcting young dogs. Manipulation, patience & high rewards are far more effective & goes alot further then any correction ever does.JMHO

 Quote: Anne Jones

.... I did not mean to have anyone think that in my post about my dogs being in a down for almost an hour on the field while I was talking to the detective & news crew was a formal down. Yes, they were placed in a down & I expected them to stay there, but it was a relaxed down. Not what I would call an formal competition down in which my dogs will lay with high alert all tucked up under themselves, heads high & their eyes & ears pricked toward me anticipating my relaese command. They were allowed to relax but stay put...no creaping or wiggling around. Also these dogs were 4 & 6 years old. NOT PUPPIES!

Putting too much pressure of ANY kind, espescially with pushing training too hard or too fast will surly kill the drive & fun of training out of a pup. Each dog is an individual & needs to be trained with that in mind. What one dog may be able to do at 18 months another may not be able to do until 2 or more. You need to be VERY careful with trianing pups. It should always be fun for them & leaving them wanting more. I also NEVER use correction of any kind with a pup or young dogs. They are always given the benefit of the doubt. It way down the road before I ever consider correcting young dogs. Manipulation, patience & high rewards are far more effective & goes alot further then any correction ever does.JMHO

I know I didn't think anything at all negative about your post, but again, it's so hard when you "know" each other to see what strangers reading a thread might conclude.

No, my question came about because of a reference to a young dog, and me not being sure what was meant .... not wanting anyone new to ob training to think that a puppy in a long down for 30 minutes was a good goal.

These responses are really reassuring and also (I think) might be clarifying for the beginning trainer.

I expect a sit, down and stay by 12-14 weeks old BUT all are motivational and none are longer then 15-20 seconds at that age. That's the early beginnings of time/distance.
Dog training in general, puppy training in particular should be fun for the dog. There is no place for compulsion with puppy training and with an older dog there should be no need for it till the dog truly understands what your asking.
From that point on it all depends on your skill and desire as to how far you take the motivational training.
I've said it before. Leadership has nothing to do with the method you use in training but how you uses those methods.