Hey Lynne,
Yes, I very much agree about rewarding him for staying quiet. Perhaps I may be better off without rewards in this situation as it's difficult to understand what exactly he is thinking at the time.

I definitely am not trying to agitate him when he's in his crate. But, I do know that when I do certain things, and if he's in that "don't annoy me mood" he will bark at me. It's not that I'm doing it to make him mad, but it's just that I'm going through my daily routine which can annoy him.

Moving the crate is a possibility, but I do live in a very small apartment/studio so it's hard to give him that peaceful area that's not noisy or busy. What I've noticed is that if I put him into another room is that he'll cry/whine until I sit next to him.

I do have a second dog in the apartment. They get along great and he sleeps under my bed. I haven't noticed any type of aggression even if the other dog is walking near Oliver's crate.

Oliver's exercise regimen consist of 3-4 walks a day. Ranging anywhere from 15-60 minutes. Usually before bed I get him worked up playing ball so he's tired and sleeps well. If he's not in his crate, he's being pretty active. It's when he starts to calm down that I've noticed the aggression happening.

While I'm not super experienced, to me, it really doesn't feel like he doesn't feel safe, but it's more of a annoyed response. Kind of a "keep it quiet while I'm sleeping or I'll bite you." But then again, I'm no expert, so it's really hard to say.

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Hi Mara,
Thank you for the link to the Marker Training information. I will definitely give it a thorough read.

I see what you're saying about how Oliver has so many different things that has happened to him and I completely take the blame for that. It's been difficult for me to 100% stick to one of the methods I've been taught or read about when I'm hearing conflicting things about certain techniques. I guess what I really need to do is find a behaviorist/trainer I can trust who can really understand the living situation as it's a bit complicated.

Though, I would like to make it clear that I'm not deliberately trying to make him react.. it's just that he reacts when I open my closet door and drawers (which are opened a few times a day). I can't necessarily stop doing that, but I COULD try moving his crate out of the room again.

I feel like I do know what makes him react, and I can't avoid it. But there's some days where he won't react to me opening my closet door and other days where he will. To me, it feels like some days he's just more irritated than others.

I should also note that while this doesn't happen all the time, there's been instances where my Girlfriend and I are talking (not loud, but not quiet either) and he'll begin barking/growling. It doesn't seem like it's the type of bark where he's startled but more like a "shut up."

 Quote: Mara Jessup

I never thought about it quite like that.... My dogs are also extremely careful in the way they wake me up.

Yeah, it's funny what you think of at 2:00 in the morning, waiting for the little gaffers to empty their bladders.

Sure, no one likes being woken up in the middle of the night but I think it really sets the stage for a pleasant experience when you open your eyes to such a sweet face, so respectfully trying to communicate their needs with you. I couldn't help but take notice.


And John, as much I understand your desire to get a label on this and someone to tell you what he's thinking, ultimately it's your relationship that will change this. A routine, trusting relationship where he feels relaxed, confident and safe in his place in your world.

Terms like him feeling upset or annoyed at your daily actions are human terms that really have little, if anything, to do in the dog world.

You act, he reacts, then you act in a manner that's inconsistent and unpredictable to him, ultimately reinforcing his reason to react and potentially making it worse. (who's on first )

I wouldn't worry about a little whining in a back room - that needs to be ignored or it will definitely increase. Like Lynne and Mara have said, no messing with him in his crate. Bring him out when you want to interact with him, in any manner. In to relax, only. Food or toys in there before he goes in and taken out only after he is out.

Some dogs are more sensitive to the energy of their humans. I would be paying close attention to what type of conversations you're having with your girlfriend when he starts the growling.

You say it's like he’s telling you to "shut up". Are these more animated or passionate discussions? Not necessarily louder but more intense.

As well with opening the drawers/closets. Are they at times when you may be running late or perhaps a little annoyed or upset yourself.

You say he doesn’t do it all the time. What's happening during the times it doesn’t bother him?

And not necessary to relay the intimate details back to us but maybe something to think about to help you start to understand this.

 Quote:

I feel like I do know what makes him react, and I can't avoid it. But there's some days where he won't react to me opening my closet door and other days where he will. To me, it feels like some days he's just more irritated than others.

I should also note that while this doesn't happen all the time, there's been instances where my Girlfriend and I are talking (not loud, but not quiet either) and he'll begin barking/growling. It doesn't seem like it's the type of bark where he's startled but more like a "shut up."

In that case I would try to avoid the triggers when possible, but if he just reacts sometime, ignore him and continue on. If you change your behavior when he barks/growls then he's learning that the barking/growling works. So just ignore it if it happens and carry on like it didn't happen.

You need to have a good relationship with a dog and be respectful of them and how a situation makes them feel and set them up for success but at the same time can't let them call the shots. Does that make sense?

Also totally agree with what CJ said about your mood/attitude affecting him. Dogs can be super sensitive to that sort of thing

John,

Been lurking, reading, thinking...

So, you have two dogs in the apartment. One crated, one not. One sleeping under the bed, the other in the crate...

My mutts are 'pets' in the first instance, and, with the exception of a young dog, or a new dog, or a foster dog, I don't put one in a crate and let the other three have free range.

It is my practice. probably ill advised, to treat all four dogs as equals. I don't take sides if there is a momentary snit but rather use global commands to end any issues. All dogs learn together at times like that.

They eat together, and the only peculiar thing I do is to color code their bowls, and train them not to eat out of each other's bowls, a tick of mine.

You seem like a really nice fellow, and some times a really nice fellow can confuse talking with a dog, or bribing a dog, or oohhing and aahhing over a dog with leadership.

Each and both dogs should know your commands and your command voice. "NO" means no. If the dog is barking, it should stop and refocus on you with a "NO."

I'm in a cranky mood this morning, so I'm probably missing the point of this whole thread but I am not so much into rewards, read treat bribes, given commands in the house. My rules, my house, my toys, my crate, my food, my treats, my bed, my, my my...

Demeanor is important. I am not my dog's friend. I am the official, self anointed pack leader. My rules for behavior.

NO, Come, Sit, Down are the basics and they have to be rock solid. If they are, and if they are used to refocus the dogs, I believe your concerns will be mitigated.

I'm not reading in this thread a bias for serious pack leadership. You have a pack. You have two dogs. You have to work the two dogs in the same way. They are both equal or you will have issues.

As usual, I am probably far off the mark and the comments are not worth two cents.

John;

After reading Mike's post, something occurred to me, so I reread this entire thread.
You are correct in that, the more you seek advice, the more conflicting responses you get. IMO, you need to go back to the beginning, consider the most basic thing first, and work on one answer at a time.

I think Mike is onto something. You said in your original post that is impossible to keep this dog inside unless he is crated. Why?

This is where you need to start. I agree with Mike in that you are treating the dogs differently (and possibly not equitably). Why is one in the crate and one not. You are treating this dog like an outcast, so that is the response that you're getting.

If you have a valid reason for confining this dog, have you tried any other means, like an ex-pen or a kiddy gate?

I disagree that it makes no difference what kind of crate it is. I have owned and handled many types of pets, including birds, rodents, and reptiles. Different types of enclosures make a huge difference in handling some pets, and dogs are no different. If the dog has limited visibility (sensory access to his surroundings), he is limited to which senses he uses to detect what is happening, and can be startled more easily. If he senses a presence and can't see what is going on, he will certainly be more edgy.
My dog is more comfortable in her wire crate than she is in her pet porter.

Again, why is it impossible to keep the dog inside without being crated?

CJ,
I see what you're saying about how we can't really give a term to what the dogs are experience. I've just been told the same thing by one of the trainers I was working with, but then again, how can we know for sure?

When I do open my closet, I give a quick peer into Oliver's crate to see what he's doing. This gives me a good sense of whether or not he'll bark at me or not. He's generally lying down sleeping, so if he puts his head up and stares at me, I'd probably say it's a 60% chance he'll bark. If he's snoring away and doesn't really get him, he likely won't do anything. If I hear a tail wagging and hitting the crate as I come in, he again, probably won't act aggressive.

I know my mood affects him a lot as I've experienced this in other situations, but I'm not sure if this is the case in this situation? However, I'll try to keep this in mind when I do open the closet door.

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Mara,
Thanks for the information! Ignoring him is something I was trying for quite awhile, and to be honest, I feel like he has improved a great bit (doesn't do it as often) but it still happens occasionally.

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Mike,
I would love to treat them fairly as that was my intial plan, but the Oliver also had issues with aggression when he was younger (4 months) when he wasn't crated the first 2-3 weeks I had him. For instance, Oliver would wake up when sleeping in my lap and give a low growl. He'd look up at me, and I'd tell him it's okay and he would go back to sleep. One day Oliver was sleeping on the floor at night, he woke up suddenly and jolted. Spot (the other dog) sprinted out of the room and Oliver immediately went after him. This was all in the dark as it was pretty late at night. I gave him a firm "No!" and he immediately stopped and went back to his bed. While I cannot say for sure, it seemed to me like Oliver deliberately was not trying to attack Spot, but his first instinct was to chase what was moving. If Spot didn't sprint out, I feel like Oliver would have given him a quick nip without really realizing who it was.

That's when the crating began. I also feed him in his crate because when he was younger, he was aggressive when there was food around to other dogs. My behaviorist recommended that he ALWAYS be fed alone and I've stuck to it. Oliver is not aggressive with humans around food, and I can't say for sure if he's still aggressive around food with dogs as it has become routine for him to go into his crate whenever I ask him if he's hungry.

Though, if you feel these routines should stop, I would definitely try doing something different. I had just thought feeding them separate was the appropriate thing to do.

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Duane,
He's crated when indoors because he has tried to attack humans before. He has bit my girlfriend before and has tried to bite me a few times (when falling asleep, not in his crate). For instance, he'd be sleeping near my feet, and I'd get up and he'd growl and try to bite me. In many ways, I feel like I can handle the situation without getting hurt, but I feel Oliver is too strong for my girlfriend to handle.

Because of this, I put Oliver in his crate once I notice he starts dosing off. It's not necessarily impossible to have him in the house out of crate as a majority of the day he is out of his crate -- he just needs to be occupied with something like a ball or toy.

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John,

Treating dogs fairly is a given. Treating dogs equally is often difficult because dogs have different personalities and drives.

Crates are most useful tools, as long as they aren't used as a cell. If a dog acts up it can be counter productive, in my opinion, to use the crate to take the dog out of the moment. My preference is to correct the act on the spot and re start the clock. I put a dog in a crate more on a schedule than anything else, much like I think you are doing.

I am a proponent of conditioned schedules, with centering times of meals, down times, read nights, and up times, read morning starts, with a more or less loose schedule for play and a bit of training spaced through out the day.

In re one dog running from the room and the other following, it happens all the time around here. I have one dog with the ears of a bat who can bolt to the kitchen gate at the sound of the newspaper hitting the front porch, or a vehicle pulling into the driveway. It launches toward the kitchen, and the mob follows to see what is going on, though they all will stop on command.

In truth, the dogs all react to the reactions of each other. One hears or senses some thing and they all are more alert and tuned in but it has little to do with any negative interaction.

I don't want my dogs to take each other on but on the other hand dogs are dogs and some times, just like humans, they take offense when the sniffing is too intimate, or they are gnawing on some thing and another dog decides to horn in. NO settles the issue but dogs are dogs.

You train the dog or dogs to respect food boundaries. I know many will disagree but I put the bowls down and no dog can go to his or her bowl until released either by name or with an OK to the group. And under no circumstance is a dog allowed to interrupt another dogs eating. My food, my rules. And at meal time we always work on Down, Sit, OK, NO, Come by name or group, etc. Seconds of command reminders for use later when needed.

The front door must have opened because the dogs all followed Kai the bat into the kitchen. Yup. Daughter is home.

The behaviorist in me works to have a dog understand the command NO. I don't care if the dog understands why I command NO. It had just better stop what it is doing and refocus on me.

I know I am a contrarian but I don't feed or offer treats to a dog in a crate. That is just me. The crate is the dog's safe place. I work on the command IN when I want a dog to go into a crate.

John, please forgive me but you keep mentioning a behaviorist. What is a behaviorist? You have a house with two dogs and a girl friend. Dogs adapt to rules and boundaries given consistent training and reinforcement. Girl friends... Not so much.

You have dogs in the now, not in the past when they were younger. Train them in the now. I have had lots of foster dogs as well as dogs of my own for quite a few years. A foster dog comes into the pack to become an adoptable pet. It never ceases to surprise me how quickly a foster dog adapts to the rules of the house. It observes the pack and adapts. It seems to learn my command set as much by observing the response of the pack as from my corrections. I know rules, consistent training and reinforcement works. Set a goal and train to it.

It is more convenient for me to feed the dogs together. I am the human, they are the dogs. They act up and I correct because my goal is that they eat in harmony, respecting the other pack members bowls. I like harmony, so I train for harmony. And the mutts are not a bunch of daises, or is it pansies?

And for sure, I would never ask a dog if he or she is hungry. They eat at 0630 hrs., and 1730 hrs. And the bowls are on the deck for ten, count'em, ten minutes, or until they have finished eating which ever comes first. And that is after I have brewed my cup of coffee in the a.m.

John, your routines are the routines most convenient to you, and not the dogs. My routine is not appealing to every one. But I live here with the four GSDs, and to do so in harmony and tranquility, for the most part, my rules compliment my way of living.

What is implied but so far unwritten is this, I am the alpha. I do not hesitate to correct, nor do I hesitate to praise. I do not hesitate to smile, nor do I hesitate to posture anger or disgust. Dogs read you, as they would read the alpha in a pack, and either know you are in charge and leading or are training you to do things on their terms. I think it was a GSD that first postured LEAD, FOLLOW, OR GET OUT OF THE WAY. I choose to lead.

I seldom worry about hurting the feelings of a dog because it lives in the moment for all intents and purposes. If I am fair and consistent, and treat all the dogs as equals for atmospheric purposes, then each dog has much less stress because it doesn't have to vie for its place in the pack. I defined it. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I type fast. Amazing today because I haven't had all that much coffee, though I shall remedy that in part by a double espresso shortly.

All this probably not worth two cents.

 Quote: John Nguyen

... He's crated when indoors because he has tried to attack humans before. He has bit my girlfriend before and has tried to bite me a few times (when falling asleep, not in his crate). For instance, he'd be sleeping near my feet, and I'd get up and he'd growl and try to bite me.

Could you detail this? I started to go back but there are some long posts, many unrelated to this, and it would be good if we could get a detailed picture of this.



eta
Ah, I see Ben did mention it on page one.


Edited by Connie Sutherland (05/22/2012 10:44 AM)
Edit reason: eta

Also, John, have you heard of NILIF?

And again, sorry if I missed this .... does the uncrated dog have any access to the dog who is crated?