To clarity: by the first session or 2 I meant the VERY 1st time the dog is introduced to the work. NOT the first working session each time you go to train.

My dogs never needed this to turn on....but you can have one that might need this a time or 2 to get the idea.

Like Bob, I'm not a big fan of the whip. I just don't think that the "right dog" for the work needs all that, like I stated in my earlier post.

I also think that some decoys & TDs think that this is a big magic bullet to get a dog turned on & totally spun up & often it is seriously misused. Especially in boarderline dogs. Meaning dogs that really are not suitable for the work & are agitated with the whip in order to be able to work. Very wrong in my mind.

Duane, that type of scenario that you described or something somewhat similar is generally what is done to test/evaluate a dosg for sport at most clubs. (It can be far more extreme for a PP dog to find the thresholds.) I didn't know what you were alluding to in first your post. Thanks for clarifying.

Older dogs are often started in some of the same ways that pups ate. They just moves thru the steps more quickly. :-)

Oh, Anne, what I meant was that I thought Kristin's dog was past the beginner stage. Thanks for explaining that. I think she's gonna benefit greatly from the "Advanced..." dvd. She'll pbly be teaching us stuff.

 Quote: Anne Jones

It can be far more extreme for a PP dog to find the thresholds.

ABSOLUTELY! I've seen young PPD dogs come to TD for finishing/brush up. The first time, TD had our lead helper get right in the dogs face. I asked why we didn't do it as described earlier, and the reply I got was "For what those ppl paid for that f****** dog, he BETTER be able to take it".

I've seen a "PPD" that the owner sent away for $5000 worth of protection training, and the dog didn't even make it to the fence. Dog didn't know what the sleeve was for, and had no prey drive. The first clue was that the guy who took the 5g referred the owner to TD for "finishing". Arrghhh

Anyway, sorry, Kristin...back to the thread.

Its fine, pretty much anything you all have to add its of use to me this isn't a club per se, its a very small group with a trainer who is training her dogs with a larger club out of the area. I have gotten a good bit out of it in general but there are no folks there that have long term experience in protection. She is essentially bringing what she learns back to us and adopting it slowly, while we all get our dogs worked out. With duke being hot and cold on if he wants to engage the way we want him to (active barking and strongly engaging the toy that the helper has) as opposed to the way he wants to (puppy play, jumping up and down at the helper or playing with me, not the toy) we may be as far as we can go, now or ever. I can live with that. His ob has gotten very good and we can always work on that while things are slow and put off anything else until we get down to a club with more experienced trainers to assess what he's got - but we'll be happy with him either way

Good on ya. Maybe you can bring some of what you are learning to the group and help the others.

Try restrained play, teasing with the toy on the rope, so that he doesn't have direct access to you. Throw it, yank it out just before he pounces. Once he's worked up by trying to grab it, reward him with a bite, then move up the rope and tug. If he tries to shift his attention to you, back out and do it some more.

Try it at home first. If it works, show it to the others. Once he will consistently engage the toy, you can hand it off to the decoy (with Duke pulling). Don't rush it. Little bit at a time.
Once he will tug with the decoy, let the decoy do most of the work so that they develop a relationship. At this point, you will only be tugging with him as a reward for OB, or during your play sessions (which should be very frequent so that his prey drive is getting stronger).

JMO

BTW; Once you get to the point, where you can go with him will be much further. I wish my dog was farther along, but all of a sudden, she is really starting to blossom. Huge improvement almost overnight.

Edited by Duane Hull (01/28/2013 07:07 PM)
Edit reason: btw

I've been gone all day since I first responded. From what I gather fro Duane's posts, it sounds like our trainers have worked Marco the same as what Duane has been learning or very close to it. Thinking about it, they have only cracked the whip with him a few times and only very recently in the approximately 4 months since we started. They often wave it over or around him I assume to begin acclimating him to the stick for later on. I didn't realize that the whip was only for working the dog up. I assumed it was also to make sure the dog had the nerve to stay on the bite under pressure. Never thought to ask about that.

I recently asked the reason why they do certain things with certain dogs and not with others and how they know when to switch. Particularly with dogs that are the same age as Marco doing things more advanced than we're at. They said that every dog is different and they have to evaluate where each dog is individually. They also said that if they were to put pressure on my dog too early they could create a dog I wouldn't want. Especially because they said that rotties tend to be so serious about protection once they mature that I'd have a monster on my hands.

Finally, with all the comments about having the right dog for the work, I didn't get Marco for sport/work in the beginning. He was just supposed to be a pet. Two months later I find out there's a club near me and I've wanted to do schH for many years. The people in the club said not to write off the dog until I try. So far the trainers are saying that he's showing what they expect for a rottie his age and only starting at 7 months old. So I'm happy so far. I went into it just hoping to learn as much as I could and if I get Marco titled that's just icing on the cake. If he just gets a BH I can live with that and I can look for a better working prospect later. Can't afford another dog any time soon.

The cracking of the whip is for agitation in training. The baton/stick hits are for a test of temperment/strength of will of the dog to stay in the fight with the decoy.

No SchH decoy crackes a whip in a trial....they only wave the baton/stick at the dog & strike the dog over the back with it.

Anne, I knew that the whip is not used during a trial. I also have seen most of the experienced dogs get fired up at the sound of the whip. I just didn't put 2 & 2 together completely. I get it now.

Like Bob & I both stated....a really good dog that is meant for the work, shouldn't need a whip crack to turn him on. My dog SCREAM in the truck when I pull off the highway because they know where they are going. No need for a whip. They just wanna work & BITE!

Kirsten, have you tried a flirt pole with your dog? That can put in a lot of extra movement to the rag and really stimulate prey in a low to medium drive pup/dog.
With the rag by hand you just may not be quick enough to do it.