Quote: Jose Miguel Gome

 Quote: Duane Hull

Jose;

Just out of curiosity, do you have a specific reason, or need, to have your dog interact with other people and dogs?

I don't. I am just very curious about different approaches. I study animal behavior, so that may be the reason.

What are your own thoughts about Dr. Dunbar's mostly dismissive attitude toward pack structure in domestic dogs?

While I tend to get crawly-skin when people speak to and about dogs as if they were human toddlers, that might be just a mannerism. The pack structure thing, though, is more than a mannerism or verbal habit.




eta

Off topic .......just for clarity, I think the species is fine just as it is ..... dogs don't need to be stand-ins for children for me.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (01/31/2013 08:32 PM)
Edit reason: eta

Observation; I'm not quite sure that you will be able to accomplish obedience or agility with an "every now and then" approach. You may need some precise engagement training.

Back to this...

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: Jose Miguel Gome

 Quote: Duane Hull

Jose;

Just out of curiosity, do you have a specific reason, or need, to have your dog interact with other people and dogs?

I don't. I am just very curious about different approaches. I study animal behavior, so that may be the reason.

What are your own thoughts about Dr. Dunbar's mostly dismissive attitude toward pack structure in domestic dogs?

While I tend to get crawly-skin when people speak to and about dogs as if they were human toddlers, that might be just a mannerism. The pack structure thing, though, is more than a mannerism or verbal habit.

 Quote: Jose Miguel Gome

 Quote: Cheri Grissom

The particular puppy classes I took this dog to advocated letting the puppies play on their own, with absolutely no interaction from the humans. If a pup was being bullied, then of course the instructors would step in and remove the offender. But, otherwise, hands off. In retrospect, I think that is one of the big reasons my dog thinks other dogs are always there to be played with.

I have the same question here. Does he know that being called does not end the play session?

It's taxing my memory here, as the puppy classes for this dog were years ago, but I don't have a recollection of practicing the kind of exercise you are describing where you call your puppy and then reward him by letting him go back to playing with the others.

The puppy classes were followed by countless group training classes where, indeed, the dog was expected to display good manners and attention to his handler in an environment with other dogs around. What I have now is a very friendly but spazzy and distracted dog who will probably never get any obedience titles, but we continue to train and strive for those goals, and I love him and enjoy his company.

I've had other dogs who have gone the same route of puppy socialization classes followed by group training classes and ended up with very different results (dogs that were sociable but also able to focus and work with me), so I have to believe that the dog's individual temperament and personality traits are a crucial factor.

I have heard of Dr. Dunbar but have not read any of his books, so I can't really comment on his specific ideas.

Interesting topic, Jose.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

What are your own thoughts about Dr. Dunbar's mostly dismissive attitude toward pack structure in domestic dogs?

Pack structure is a very tricky question.
I believe in leadership and think it is important. I also think that dogs use some form social structure but perhaps more fluid and less strict than the classical wolf pack thing.

I don't think that dogs pull on the leash, climb on sofas, go through doors first because of lack of leadership. I think those behaviors are operant driven.

However, I've seen dogs getting out of the sofa when I tell them to and seen the same dog not doing it when told by my girlfriend and I must confess that in that kind of situation I wonder if that is pack driven.

Leerburg's approach to not letting dogs be petted by other people, not interacting with other dogs, and being handled and walked only by one person because these other people and dogs are from another pack does not make intuitive sense to me. They make some sense if I want my dog to be super focused on me, but not because of being from other pack.

However, what I've read and my experience on this specific topic are limited, I must confess.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Interesting topic, Jose.

Thank you and all the others for contributing.

http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2012/07/23/3551232.htm?site=conversations&microsite=conversations&section=article&date=(none)

Interview with Jodi Picoult

This woman is a well known author who has also researched wolves. You might find it interesting Jose if you're confused about all the conflicting pack structure stuff

Jose;

I may be able to offer some insight into why and how working/sport dog trainers apply pack principals to their management.
I studied Pre-veterinary medicine at LSU 1981-1983. I was not accepted into Veterinary school. I have a fundamental (albeit faded) familiarity with animal sciences and animal behavior. I have not sudied in years and am not well-versed in some specific disciplines, as you and Connie are. I am certainly no animal behaviorist.
I came into the working dog arena two years ago, when I adopted a 2.5yo mature GSD who had been allowed to dominate other dogs and even children (pack behavior) in her previous home. She was pushy, arrogant, and reactive, and even at times showed inklings of handler aggression. I knew that were I be able to manage this dog, I would need to hone my handler/trainer skills. I came to this website and studied Ed's philosophy, and joined a club ran by a very experienced professional trainer.

Ancestral pack behavior is clearly evident in litters of puppies, especially if they are allowed to stay together beyond 10 wks. At 5-6 wks, they start to learn bite inhibition. It is also at this point that I've seen my trainer begin to imprint prey drive. These two age milestones are the main reason why many people consider 8 wks to be the optimal time to separate a pup from its' littermates.
Once removed from the litter, pack behavior is often discouraged, particularly if there are multiple dogs in the home. However, for working dog management (and IMHO, for any dog, including well-behaved household companions), the pack leader/subordinate role is still present and very useful. It certainly was with my dog. Without it, she would run her own life and make some very unwise and dangerous decisions for herself.

Again, I am no behaviorist, and this is my individual perception.

9 years ago, I took my Rott through the Sirius puppy classes. It seemed like a good idea. First time we had a puppy with 2 and 5 yr old kids.

With that said Jose, I think temperament and drives are pretty much hard wired in dogs. They don't change and we just influence whats done with them. Since I look at it that way, I don't see any real difference between Sirius, Leerburg, or a whole lot of others.

You teach your dog what you want. Thats all. You'll get what he's capable of. If your dog is friendly and social it doesnt matter if you let everyone give him a treat or teach him to ignore others. He's still going to be friendly, you just taught him what to do.

If he's a little unsure about people and you have everyone give him treats, he's still going to be a little unsure, but now he knows how to behave.

If he's bothered by other dogs, getting roughed up by three of them in a puppy class isnt going to change that.

For me, its all obedience. Whether is something simple, like in Dr. Dunbar's videos or focused heeling. Its all the same.

Where's the "Like" button when you need it? ^^^^^^^^

Especially this:

 Quote: steve strom

...I think temperament and drives are pretty much hard wired in dogs. They don't change and we just influence whats done with them...

As I mentioned before, I don't have experience with a large number of dogs, but this statement has held very true with my dogs and those of many other people I know.