The nurture vs nature thing only carries so far.
In 60 + yrs I've rarely had less then 2-3 dogs at a time. All my "pets" regardless of the jobs they did.
Many different temperaments among the lot. That didn't change how they minded me but it certainly didn't create all with very similar temperaments just because of the way I raised them. I raised and trained them according to those individual temperaments.

Thanks Bob. Good post!!

 Quote: Bob Scott

The nurture vs nature thing only carries so far.
In 60 + yrs I've rarely had less then 2-3 dogs at a time. All my "pets" regardless of the jobs they did.
Many different temperaments among the lot. That didn't change how they minded me but it certainly didn't create all with very similar temperaments just because of the way I raised them. I raised and trained them according to those individual temperaments.

Agreed 100%, Bob -- Obedience Training as a function of "nurturing in compliance" effects BEHAVIOR by COMMAND ... It does not effect Temperament which is a function of "nature".

In this it is similar to the Rule of Law within human societies -- Whether citizens Abide by Rules OR Are Scofflaws is not temperament-specific ... The full spectrum of human temperaments is represented in BOTH categories (obedient versus disobedient) and the same holds true for dogs owned by people.

I don't believe a dog will actually "disobey". It simply doesn't have the training needed for compliance to a particular command.
For a dog there has to be a consequence to any behavior. Reward or correction. If you not clear on that then the dog is disobedient/stubborn/flipping the bird/etc. All human terms that I don't like to use relative to a dog. JMHO!

 Quote: Bob Scott

I don't believe a dog will actually "disobey"...JMHO!

I appreciate our difference of opinion, Re: the above, Bob -- But this has not been my experience in working with highly aloof, extremely independent, and very willfull breeds ... I have witnessed many an individual dog hear a fully understood command, then consider the known consequences of obeying OR disobeying before electing non-compliance, because its own self-reward for doing as IT pleases at that given moment is deemed to be worth your correction (at least until you up the ante by pulling some form of ultimate rank on the beastie).

JMHO here too, of course

 Quote: Candi Campbell

 Quote: Bob Scott

I don't believe a dog will actually "disobey"...JMHO!

I appreciate our difference of opinion, Re: the above, Bob -- But this has not been my experience in working with highly aloof, extremely independent, and very willfull breeds ... I have witnessed many an individual dog hear a fully understood command, then consider the known consequences of obeying OR disobeying before electing non-compliance, because its own self-reward for doing as IT pleases at that given moment is deemed to be worth your correction (at least until you up the ante by pulling some form of ultimate rank on the beastie).

JMHO here too, of course

This is good stuff! I'm going to sieze this opportunity to ask both of your opinions on an issue that I'm having with my dog.

She is a GSD, with a strong willfull, independent, though not aloof, nature (though I have nurtured quite a bit of that out of her since I adopted her at 2.5 yrs). These are not all typical GSD traits, but more individually temperamental in nature. She has not accepted as automatic some behaviors that I have trained, but, on the surface, her reaction seems more stubborn than confused. Aside from the following issues, her obedience is very solid (ex: I can recall her off of even the highest distractions; I can heel her off-leash in public).

On AT Least 1000 occasions, she has been required to sit and "wait" while waiting at a door or gate, or when stopping at a curve before stepping off to cross the street. She is required to sit and wait to be leashed when exiting the kennel in the truck prior to jumping from the tailgate down to the ground. To compound the curb behavior, she has been trained to always sit when stopped at heel, and is reliable, so I especially expect the curb behavior to be automatic by now. She has done enough reps of all of these behaviors that I feel she should now be doing them without a verbal command, and it really seems like she is so locked in on being released to proceed that she is refusing the behavior deliberately. If I give her a verbal or low-level prong correction, she immediately complies, without a "sit" command.

The same dog will automatically jump into the truck and kennel herself if she knows we are going somewhere. It only took a couple of reps to lock that behavior in.

Duane, if "she is so locked in on being released" I would suspect there hasn't been enough proofing on the sit.
When teaching my dogs NOT to come out of their kennel (when I use it) I simply put them on a sit and leave the gate open when I walk away. Not until I give a release command can the budge from that sit.
I start this while I'm right next to the gate. If they try and rush through I simply catch their head in the gate. Not hard but firm enough to trap them there.
I expect that same sit and wait when putting them in the back of my car.
Automatically jumping in the back of your truck is a big difference then sitting for a release. There has to be a consequence/reward for every behavior you expect from them.

 Quote: Candi Campbell

 Quote: Bob Scott

I don't believe a dog will actually "disobey"...JMHO!

I appreciate our difference of opinion, Re: the above, Bob -- But this has not been my experience in working with highly aloof, extremely independent, and very willfull breeds ... I have witnessed many an individual dog hear a fully understood command, then consider the known consequences of obeying OR disobeying before electing non-compliance, because its own self-reward for doing as IT pleases at that given moment is deemed to be worth your correction (at least until you up the ante by pulling some form of ultimate rank on the beastie).

JMHO here too, of course

Candi, I'm always open to honest differences in opinions. It's how we learn.
If the dog in your explanation is allowed to self reward then the proofing is lacking. I do agree that they will chose that self reward if there hasn't been a good enough reward or correction in the initial training.
Dogs will do what benefits them the most. Proper training/proofing is where we, as trainers don't allow those decisions to be made by the dog.
It's simply a matter of not allowing a bad behavior (self-rewarding) to happen.
Training a dog is the easy part. Breaking those incorrect behaviors that we've allowed to happen is the pia part.
I had half dozen different terrier breeds for 40+ yrs. They are known to be "stubborn" yet I've never had one that fit that description.

 Quote: Bob Scott

Duane, if "she is so locked in on being released" I would suspect there hasn't been enough proofing on the sit.
When teaching my dogs NOT to come out of their kennel (when I use it) I simply put them on a sit and leave the gate open when I walk away. Not until I give a release command can the budge from that sit.
I start this while I'm right next to the gate. If they try and rush through I simply catch their head in the gate. Not hard but firm enough to trap them there.
I expect that same sit and wait when putting them in the back of my car.
Automatically jumping in the back of your truck is a big difference then sitting for a release. There has to be a consequence/reward for every behavior you expect from them.

I've thought out exactly this in the past, yet she will sit without a command if I correct her or wait her out. Does that not mean that she understood that the sit and wait was expected?

In my attempts to proof, she is faultless, as long as I give a command. I can tell her to sit in the kennel and open the door, and she won't move until released. I have commanded her to wait at the front door, and she will hold the sit while I repeatedly walk in and out. My quandary is that I feel she knows what is expected without a command and is just being a bitch.

Maybe Duane, because she's rewarded on the release in a lot of things and you've used a little pressure on the sit, her anticipating the release is actually a little avoidance of holding a sit in some situations.

It could be a matter of giving her more rewards in that position without a release. Keep feeding her for holding it. I don't think its that she doesn't know the command, but more like what your doing in different situations is inconsistent in her mind.

With the sitting each time at a curb, it could be as simple as you not approaching each curb in the same manner. We spend all this time on formal heeling trying to handle consistently and then on relaxed, casual walks they're supposed to relax and enjoy it too. If my dog doesn't sit everytime on a walk, its not a big deal to me unless I'm demanding his full attention right then. Try thinking about what she's actually doing as you approach that curb.