The dog NEEDS a clean out!
Marker training is excellent for this.
She's not going to give up a high value toy (green ball) for a lower value toy (tug).
Stop throwing the toy until you have a good out. She's already figured out that you can't do a thing when she doesn't bring it back and chews on it. THAT is a self rewarding behavior. She doesn't need you anymore once she has it.
Teach the retrieve and out indoors in a narrow hall. You need to keep the dog in your area of influence, The narrow hall will do that for you.
Once she has an out, and not before, toss the tug a short distance against the end of the hall which should only be 4-5 ft away. She's still in your area of influence. IF she tries to run, she can't because of the narrow hall.
As for going for the hand. Training the out with markers will help because YOUR in control. If she gets your hand then "OUCH" and act all hurt and stop the game. Turn your back on her for 8-10 seconds then try again.
Does she take food from you with a lot of extra mouth work or is she gentle with that? That can indicate if she's just being to happy/rough or if she knows the difference.
Train happy!

ok bob ill try the hall thing, just a question, what should i do if she doesnt re engage me? she tends to lose interest in playing with toys with me a lot, that why i use a lot of food, and i dont want to train tug as a clicker excercise D:

 Quote: Milanka Ratkovich

ok bob ill try the hall thing, just a question, what should i do if she doesnt re engage me? she tends to lose interest in playing with toys with me a lot, that why i use a lot of food, and i dont want to train tug as a clicker excercise D:

Not speaking for Bob, but I'm confused. You know that marker training uses food rewards, right? And also that what we're saying here is to use that marker training for the release of the fetch-item into your hand?

That is, one thing is being trained right now: the dog releasing the item into your hand.

The idea is to have a good solid "out" (the release of the item into your hand) before it's tossed. Also, even when you have that out, you start the retrieve/fetch game in a small space. That's why a hall was mentioned. But it can be any no-distraction space, which usually means an indoor room, just you and the dog, with you close to the dog.


Have you loaded (charged) a marker, either clicker or verbal?

i train mainly with the clicker and a word. Havanna recently (when i was in bed the past 10 days) developed the problem of not bringing the toy back (and because i could not go for the toy) she started to not bringing the toy back to me D:.
She has a beautiful out, even with food (and she LOVES food) my problem is that she round me and not bring the toy back, and when we play tug if i let her win she doesnt come back for more, she gos with the toy. But i went to the hall and try the two hose game with outs, worked like wonders...she did not wonder aroud and she actually re engaged when i presented the other hose. :P

I think your missing the idea of teaching the out. You don't want the dog to run off so you don't let go of the tug.
If she's not returning the ball then DON'T throw it untill the out is solid.
Clicker training the out is for both a competition AND a fun retrieve.
You need a clean out. It will solve your problems because once the dog realizes it will be rewarded for that out THEN AND ONLY THEN do you start tossing the toy.
The tug doesn't have to be tossed and retrieved. If she looses interest to easily then mark and reward the out for a food treat.
Without a good out she will never consistently return the ball or toy or what ever you toss.
As stated before, her running off to chew on it is self rewarding. She NEEDS to figure out that the reward comes from you hand and not from the ground where you've tossed the ball/toy/stick/whatever.

 Quote: Bob Scott

If the dog enjoys the game of tug that much then just teach the out with markers and let a regrip be the reward. It's a common method in schutzhund for teaching the out. Done correctly the dog quickly learns that the "out" command will get a rebite.

Training with a ball for the reward can work but once the dog has the ball then YOUR value goes down. I like to be a part of the reward as in another game of tug.

You see that teaching the out applies both here and in the retrieve (fetch) with the other dog. If I am following the two threads right (and now they're kinda one thread). Two dogs: tug for one, fetch for the other.

Ditto with Connie! Once you learn what is a high value reward for each dog then marker training can be a piece of cake.
As I've said in the past, if the dog doesn't have a great out then you no longer have much value because the dog has what it wants.
You want the reward to be the interaction between you and the dog. NOT just a dispenser for those rewards.

bump

 Quote: SamanthaTopper

Pit bull type dogs are terriers. Neos are mastiffs. It's like calling a Maple tree an Oak. You're not going to get syrup out of an Oak tree. They are two very different types of dog. A correct-type pit bull (of any of the 'pit bull' breeds) will be human-centric and you don't have to wait for full maturity for the dog to be fully bonded. I dare say a Neo wouldn't be wagging his tail and absolutely thrilled to be in the company of strangers after being subjected to horrific abuse, but many pit bull types really are absolutely thrilled to be around strangers while also in agonizing pain.

Terriers are the vermin control of the dog world. What your dog is doing is perfectly normal for her type, even though many breeds have a 'bite and hold' trait. If she won't reengage the advice you've been given is really helpful.

I thought I would leave this post for sometime after the last post on this thread.Samantha you are correct to a point,however neos are unique compared to other mastiffs in that they are a fighting dog and constructed for that purpose.In the pic below you will notice that the whole body has loose skin all over it.Having owned the breed for over 30 years it is something I have witnessed in the early days of ownership when ,due to my initial lack of knowledge and experience of owning this breed I had a fight break out with 2 female neos and indeed tho injuries to both were substantial,when taking them off to the vet on public transport they engaged with others despite their injuries.On arrival at the vets one had to remain for an operation the other had stitches to a wound without any use any type of aneasetic and required little restaint.That is why many pitbull breeders cross their pitbulls with neos to produce a "banndog" something which I do not agree and thankfully is illegal here in the uk .

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u165/bosscat69/2013-09-17-227_zps0473d9ce.jpg

Just thought I would add some information to your obvious extensive knowledge.

Andrew, I recall your posts (with pics) about taking multiple Neos on the bus with no bad outcome because of your pack-control. I remember LB board members who were aghast at this irresponsibility (taking multiple giant-breed dogs in public with only one handler) and your responses claiming great control, plus a no-incident history.

I'm confused about where this incident fits in .... where you have two dogs who fought to the point of "substantial injuries," and then you took them on PUBLIC TRANSPORT, suffering from fight-related injuries, where they "engaged with others."


Aside from any of that, how is this post related to the thread?