I knew abot the charge for auditing, not that I couldn't watch a reactive class
When we first emailed she had told me she had a class starting in 2 days if I wanted to join, I told her I'd call her as I'm not the type to rush in. I haven't had a call back as of yet. It seems too similar to that other class, I think this one will go the bottom for now, I have a name for someone else who is slightly closer. Thanks for taking a good look, it brought up suggestions I probably wouldn't have thought of.

Oh, sorry forgot... what did you think of TAGteach? It seems to be a clicker training program for people.

It's a distraction in most environments. One on one with a specific skill it can work well. Sports is where I've seen it be the most effective.

Some trainers say they use TAGteach but when you push them on it concede that they are merely using well timed verbal positive reinforcement.

I would think that in a training environment between dog and handler it would get confusing. I've not encountered it in the real world.

Hey Jodi, what exactly are you looking for from classes? I may have missed it, but I'm curious what you are hoping to get from them. I'm sorry, and it is jmnsfho, but bat, tag, is just pointy heads trying to make dogs fit their thesis. Dogs are really a lot simpler then all that.

Hi Steve, Initially I was just looking to do set-ups to work on Ambers reactivity instead of just encountering dogs on the street. I have been using BAT with her which she has definitely improved with, but was hoping with set-ups she could progress further. I had contact with a woman via email about her reactive dog class,and I was considering it.

Hey Jodi, I may not explain this real well because I'm going to try and leave out the dismissive sarcasm. And that's a real struggle for me, but just think about a couple things in the way I look at it and see how it applies to you and Amber.

First, I think temperament is hardwired in a dog, its what they're born with and the idea that its something to "fix" or that it even can be is a misconception. We teach them whats ok and whats not, or obedience and tricks, but they are what they are.

There's one thing that looks to be pretty consistent with a lot of these protocols. Distance. Whether its farther away to not trigger something or right into the middle to flood them and make them get over something. Its still using space or distance.

If you take a look at the video on the BAT website, on the home page, it shows waiting for the dog to look away from what was bothering it or sniffing the ground. That's what I think is avoidance and insecurity. So using their terminology, to me that's what you've just "reinforced" when you move the dog away. I imagine almost anything you do has a chance of working with some dogs, but I also think that's why so many people end up spending forever hoping for a magic moment and thinking that they've gotten there the first time their dog doesn't bark. You've spent this time reinforcing the wrong things and removed something I don't think you should. You and your influence on her.

You may have seen Marker Training mentioned here. What are you doing when you mark something? You're capturing that exact moment in the dogs mind when he was correct and then you build on that, or you capture what was incorrect and communicate to him that you won't get anything from that.

Dogs gain confidence and you build trust with that type of clear success and clear communication on what's not going to be successful. I think this is why its absolutely critical to all of this that your dog isn't doing whatever they want, she's learning to do what you want. Amber isn't going to be wandering the streets alone, dealing with whatever comes along. She's going to be with you. Throughout her life, you're her handler, pack leader, trainer, friend, whatever term you want to use. Its between you and her. That other dog doesn't mean anything.

I see why you would want to use the class. It makes perfect sense to keep the training controlled and predictable. The only thing I would worry about is the way you can end up in a position of not paying attention to your dog clearly and trying to apply something like BAT because that's what the trainers insist on, even if its not working and never will for her.

Another thing, the term reactive. Not every dog is meant to be completely indifferent to their surroundings. Its impossible for them to ignore the world. Again, I just want to teach them how to behave in those surroundings and to keep in mind what their capable of. If she sits quietly while the other dog passes, I think that's perfect, but I bet the other dog still bothers her. Personally, I just hate seeing people spend their whole short time they have with their dog looking for an answer in all these studies and theories when it really can be pretty simple. Distance, obedience.

So well stated, Steve, as usual. I agree 100%.

My female is a very reactive dog. Very solid tempermented & confident with crazy high drive....but still very reactive. She doesn't ever miss a thing around her...no matter the distance away.

I teach my pups a WATCH ME command from the very beginning with them. They learn that solid eye contact with me gets them good things from day one. If there is ever something around that I know she will react to (like a another dog going bat-sh#% to get near her or making stink eye at her in the vet's office our out on a walk or out on the field etc) I just give a watch me command & that short circuits any reaction she may have. No big fuss or tension or freaking out on my part...just a solid command well taught & proofed that calms my dogs.

Dogs learn that they can rely on this kind of command to connect with their handler & calm down & deal with whats around them. They are safe & in the trusting hands of their handler.

Just what have always done with all my dogs even the less reactive ones.

Jodi - I explained in this post (http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=31875&page=1) how I successfully used BAT.

About a training class, I really don't understand why people want reactive dog classes. In my experience, a bunch of reactive dogs in a room is not going to help my fearful, sometimes reactive dog. For my dog, I worked on basic obedience at home and many other places - and then, I took an obedience class. I avoid beginner classes like the plague, because the dogs are all to often out of control.

Instead, I took an advanced class. I've taken classes at this place for years, so the instructor knows me pretty well. I explained that I needed a class full of dogs that were handler-focused and would leave Vigo alone. I also explained that if he started to get to nervous, I would exit the room or stand in a corner with him (never had to do either). Vigo's first few sessions were not entirely comfortable for him...he was pretty sure one of those dogs was going to "get him". But we continued to work on his OB and by the third session, he learned that the dogs were safe and settled in. I took 20 weeks of this class (2 - 10 week, 1 hour per week) and it was instrumental in changing his attitude about dogs.

He's to the point now that he can generally be around other dogs and ignores them. He sometimes reacts to rude dogs (usually off leash and charging us) and I cannot blame him. We've even made a lot of progress with that and now I'm the one that reacts (I'm meaner than him anyways :P )

Steve,

In defense of BAT, I'm not quite sure you've got the right idea. I wholeheartedly agree with you about genetic aspects of temperament, but I also take into consideration that experiences of the dog have a large impact. For me, I'm absolutely trying to "fix" my dog. But I have very realistic expectations of what kind of dog he is and what he is capable of. To me, the "fix" is changing his response to a stimulus (i.e. dog is scared and wants to flee to dog is scared and offers eye contact/focus to ask to be removed from the situation). The key is absolutely a relationship filled with trust and BAT helps build trust. It is absolutely not the "be all, end all". But it helps provide a segue from fearful and/or reactive behavior to new, more positive behaviors. And for the record, I use BAT and marker training at the same time I mark the calming signal and eventually shape it into eye contact/focus/obedience.

You said: "Dogs gain confidence and you build trust with that type of clear success and clear communication on what's not going to be successful."

BAT does this. For my dog, it taught him that throwing a fit and trying to bolt was not going to get him what he wanted. He first learned to offer a calming signal - for him, this was almost always a head turn, followed by a quick look at me. It was easy to mark this behavior and ignore the fit/flee. The calming signals got him what he wanted and he quickly switched to those behaviors. I was able to shape it into something like dog is uncomfortable, dog puts himself in heel position and gives eye contact instead of bolting. Was it all BAT? Of course not! But BAT did play a role...along with tons and tons and tons of obedience training.

So that's my LONG way of saying I do get your point and understand what you are saying, but I do not think BAT should be completely dismissed.

I'm in the same position as Anne, and my situation follows along Steve's logic. I have a reliably obedient dog that has endless hours of desensitizing done, but she is still reactive. I can call her away from chasing a cat or a rabbit, and I can down her near a dog only a couple of feet away, yet she still springs to attention if something catches her eye from a block away.

I've seen her spring up from a sound sleep, go to the window, then start pacing and whining. I did my duty, telling her to "leave it" while I investigated. She had heard the mail truck coming down the highway from at least a half mile away.

I think I could desensitize for the rest of her life and never change this (without breaking her spirit, that is).

ETA: I was typing at the same time as Melissa. That's an excellent post with excellent points and responses. One thing that I'm getting from this discussion is that the relationship with the dog dictates what will work and what won't, and the actual dog itself determines how much you will accomplish, whichever route you choose.

Edited by Duane Hull (10/17/2013 10:48 AM)
Edit reason: eta