Great point, Carol. The top trainers are working with typically superior blooded dogs. In your typical training club, you see people tackling training challenges in many creative ways. IME, it is much more common to see average handlers building drive for the object moreso than building engagement.

Absolutely Duane. Right now I am just happy for the drive I'm getting with the ball, and I am doing it with 2 ball because she is so friggin possessive. So I realize I need to work on the Game as Ivan puts it. Not sure how I will do that. What I have been doing is ending the game by letting her do a runoff to the car where she is more likely to drop the ball, and then rewarding with food. But interestingly enough, this can take precedent over her insatiable food drive. It's a work in progress!!!

Anyway, some really great trainers have told me, how much easier training really is with the right dog. And they give the dog most of the credit. I totally see that.
Plus, I would like to mention how much I respect Ed for saying not every dog is suited to competition or work. There is nothing wrong with a sweet companion. You can train any dog to have manners.
To try to make a dog into what it is not is a form of cruelty.

Balabanov had a show line GSD at the World WSUV in Cincinnati OH in 07, 08?

That was the only time I had seen the dog in person so maybe it was a bad day but it wasn't impressive.

The jumps in particular showed the flaw in the over angulation of the show lines.

 Quote: Christina Stockinger

 Quote: Bob Scott

Use whatever works with each individual dog.

There are some excellent dogs out there that will work only for food, or only for a toy, etc.

Don't try so hard to work the dog with what works for someone else and their dog.

I'm not trying as hard, as you might think, Bob. I don't like to make my life and that of my dogs difficult because of this. I like a ing life and ing dgs. But it's true, I'm thinking hard, what I'm doing wrong. I also know, that there are lots of dogs, who are completely food orientated. But all 4 ? Seems very strange.

Additionally, I don't want fat dogs. Not because I´d not love a fat dog less, but because it's not healthy for them. I feed them only in the evening, the most part of their daily portion goes into training (raw food). No treats between. But with food driven dogs and jackpotting (randomly!!!) especially the Lab has the tendency to put on weight. One reason more to reward with the more exhusting tugging. (For myself too!)

Addition: It cannot be by accident tht various of Leerburg's instructures teach the tug evenin beginner clases. Not simply in view of future competitios. the game seems to contribute a lot to the engagement with the hnndler.
Qoute
Mark Keating/ Relationship Games: "The main idea behind this game is to teach the dog, through subtle manipulation, that the real joy in working with a toy is to share that toy with you, the handler. As opposed to going off and laying down with the toy, or gallivanting around the field with it's "prize". This can be done in numerous ways, always in regards to the dog being worked with. We always start by using a high value toy that is conducive to tugging. As tugging is going to be one of the main methods in which we teach the dog to enjoy our interactive play."

This mkes sbsolutly sense to me.
Suh courses and the statements in there make me insist to go on with it, even if it means it will need a lot of wqiting time and patience.

My dog is completely engaged with me. She is like a shadow. If I get out of a chair, she jumps up in anticipation of doing something together. If I put shoes on, she goes into a full-blown spin.

However, tug is not her first choice of what she would have us do together. She would much prefer if I took her fishing, or chased squirrels with her. There are so many ways you can build relationships and engagement with your dog that, IMHO, it would be a huge mistake to get stuck on one and not consider others. Find something that each dog loves, and build a reward system and relationship centered around that. My dog gets more satisfaction from being released from training than she will ever get from playing tug. Bitework is a different story.

I'm with you on that Duane!!
Christina, There are many trainers who like the tug,many who like the ball, frisbee etc. My friend has a shepherd who is what I call a super retriever. He will get ANYTHING you throw and come back and drop it at your feet and wait for you to throw it again. And if you don't he will make a fuss!
Don't you think that is engagement?

To Bob, Interesting about Balabanov. I just happened to see a video of his recently, which is why I mentioned him.

 Quote: Duane Hull

...There are so many ways you can build relationships and engagement with your dog that, IMHO, it would be a huge mistake to get stuck on one and not consider others. Find something that each dog loves, and build a reward system and relationship centered around that...

I really love-Love-LOVE this post, Duane So true !!!

Every dog has its OWN natural Desires & Traits that will mesh well with various Jobs & Behaviors its owner wants to TRAIN -- And each dog has other Natural Inclinations that will be Difficult or Disappointing to its OWNER ... One of my sons and I, who both have a pair of Rescue Dobies living in our respective homes, are always wishing we could Combine our dogs' admired qualities and Remove any unappreciated ones by MAGIC

Agreeing totally with what you wrote above, it's always BEST to "work smarter Not harder" of course -- Find things our dog is Naturally Good at doing, things it Naturally Loves to do, that we can BASE our TRAINING on & and set the dog up for SUCCESS ... No sense in making Lessons a Struggle or any time spent with the dog an Uphill Battle, if we can discover ways to work WITH our pets' Natural Grain rather than AGAINST it, so-to-speak.

Now if only I could give Adobe all of Adonis' useful qualities & give him all of her useful qualities, while instantly "vaporizing" the other's unhelpful tendencies, then I would have Two PERFECT Dogs without me having to put in as much effort, LOL !!!

EXCELLENT post Duane!

Training should be fun for both dog and handler.

For me personally, it's hard to train If I'm having a day where I have to force myself to get out with the dogs.

I haven't used "traditional" method for yrs but my dogs read me to well.

Hi Duane, Carol, Candy, Bob!!!

I do agree mostly with your opinions and thank you for writing so honestly.

But I think there is some misundestanding. I'm not stuck on that tugging and it is not at all the only thing I play with them. I invest only very little time in it. I put itme thinking about it, how i could make it better, looking for a way they could find fun in this.

I do play with them, what they like most. One of many other examples "Hide nd Seek".I'm not a person who forces the dogs to do something,or which bores them or they have some other avrrsion against.No lessons of struggle!!!

I too have a good relationship with my dogs. They always come running when I apprar in the garden, espciallyv
when they realize that we are going to do something togethe, which is always fun for them and myself.

But I don't agree with you why I shouldn't give some try in something, I´m learning in a course - a very fabulous course by the way - as long as I keep those trials short, dependent on the reaction of the individual dog.

I've alredy played tug with one of my Pits, when she wss in the mood. When I catch such moments she get's really crazy about it (but not in an aggressive way). She know the rules of the game exactly. But she isn't in that mood very often. It can also be, because we alraedy have played enough other things during that day. I then without exception leave it.

I do like to read other peoples opinions, even if we don't aggree in everything. What I frankly completely DISLIKE are comments like "cruelty". I am absolutely not tryng to meke out of my dogs what they not are. This would mean forcing, boring, demotivating them. I think I have explained these things meanwhie various times enough. Just spending some thoughts how I cculd do things better, how to make it happen that my dogs might discover
the fun of tugging is certainly not cruelty in the least and in any sense of the word. Please no such remarks again.

I will without doubt be going trying to teach them this game, to have fun with it, this gradually and individually.