Vince,

With all due respect. As much as I agree with most of your posts, I have to disagree with you here.

When you are teaching a pup through inducive methods (especially in a phase that you cannot be really clear on why the dog is actually doing what it's doing) there is an undisturbed learning process going on. Ideally tracking is suppose to be set up to where you lay the track depending on what you are trying to teach the dog. Ideally the learning process should be between the track and the dog.

Too many variables in tracking. I have no idea how many paces in each leg "SchFan" was doing the day before or even the week before. Or how the first leg was baited to the second leg. How big the peices are or what kind of ground he was using this particular day, what time of day it was, the age of the track, etc... Too many variables to look at before you make a dog LEARNING how to track go down the track.

Once you put force into the picture it had changed the whole learning envioronment. Now the 5 month old pup has learned to worry and observe you while trying to learn how to track, if he's even focusing on the latter. It's too easy to make a mistake with force on the track because you just might be correcting him for the wrong reason.

You might solve one problem but create 3 others??

I'm no tracking expert but I do know analyzing behavior in obedience and protection is a lot easier because you got great indication on what's motivating the dog to do what it does.

PEACE

This pup is only 5 months old. There shouldn't be a question of MAKING it track. With food in every footstep and a jackpot at the end, all you need to do is LET your pup track. You're more of a facilitator than a teacher. I've found with my dogs that the less they are aware of my prescence at this stage, the more they are able to concentrate on the track, and food builds great focus. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Originally posted by Valdes43:
Ideally tracking is suppose to be set up to where you lay the track depending on what you are trying to teach the dog. Ideally the learning process should be between the track and the dog. Bingo.

Valdes4:

Where did you read that I promote force tracking? I said if ALL motivational techniques fail then I would use force. What part of that do you disagree with?

Originally posted by Vince P.:
Valdes4:

Where did you read that I promote force tracking? I said if ALL motivational techniques fail then I would use force. What part of that do you disagree with? I didn't actually say you promoted force tracking. I'm just in disagreement in tracking with force on a 5 month old pup.

If solutions (in the beggining) such as skipping a meal; tracking at a certain time, place, length; food placement, etc...; still don't help in the future maybe the pup needs to be reevaluated to see if it is really suitable for the work.

If the concern is just making sure the pup finishes the track for the moment then the techniques that SchH3Fh2 suggested should do the trick.

Maybe, next meal doesn't come until the next track....

I saw Vince force track an 8 week old pup using a path made in a field of glass shards, tied on to one of those dog catcher poles, and yelling at the top of his lungs. . .

TRACK TRACK TRACK TRACK!!!!!!!!!!

It was disturbing.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Shocking.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

My mother warned me about guys like you!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I've heard that in Belgium Ring trials, the dogs sometimes jump through a wall of fire to take a bite.

Guess Vince can get his young dogs to jump through a wall of fire to finish a track?

Sorry, couldn't resist.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Val wrote:” If solutions (in the beggining) such as skipping a meal; tracking at a certain time, place, length; food placement, etc...; still don't help in the future maybe the pup needs to be reevaluated to see if it is really suitable for the work.”

VP: I guess great minds think a like since I said: “Again I would exhaust every motivational possibility first but before I left that field my dog would finish the track one way or another.” And “then went home to either reevaluate my dog or my training techniques.”

Val wrote: “If the concern is just making sure the pup finishes the track for the moment then the techniques that SchH3Fh2 suggested should do the trick.”

VP: Again I agree. I agree so much that I quoted his techniques in my answer.

VC wrote: “I saw Vince force track an 8 week old pup”

VP: If you ever accuse me of a thing like that again you and me will have trouble. He was 9 weeks old and already had 2 tracks under his belt.

PF wrote: “Guess Vince can get his young dogs to jump through a wall of fire to finish a track?”

VP: That’s old news. I’m now working on him tracking with a clothes pin holding his nose close while walking backwards.”