Kevin, the way you describe the behavior of dogs losing drive in the search really sounds like ratio strain. I re-read Spector last nite and didn't find anything relating to variable schedules causing lower intensity of behavior; in fact, I've never seen that in any text on learning. Spector's guidelines for implementing a variable reinforcement schedule are not really correct - he advises using a steadily increasing scale (reward for 2-3 behaviors, then increase the criteria to 4-5 behaviors, etc). This isn't really a variable schedule - it is predictable. The dog learns that his criteria is constantly increasing. Eventually, knowing he will need to work a fairly long time (or offer many repetitions) before having any chance of getting the reward, the dog loses motivation. The value of the reward is not sufficient to outweigh the performance criteria, thus ratio strain.

You wrote: "If you use an intermittant reward schedule then you will see a lessening of the intensity of the behavior you are looking at, but it will be more durable. It is questionable whether you attain a point where this accomplishes anything other than a lowering of the intensity of the sought after behavior."
Where have you read this, cuz it goes against everything I've ever read.

Where have you read this, cuz it goes against everything I've ever read.

Let me search around. Spector mentions it. I'll have to start going through all my piles of paper.

The dog should always find someone (reward), but the length, duration, location, and situation should be random (variable).

That is what we are getting at as the answer to Grubb's question. . .right?

Kevin? The dog should find someone, or be allowed to find somone in an instant re-play to keep motivation high?

Training scenarios where intensity and accuracy are the goals should be done. . .where the dog always finds a person, but the search is variable. . .thus reward is variable.

I'm following right?

I'm following right?

You're followin' just fine.

Ptlm. Matthew Grubb wrote: . . . In order to keep the dog motivated for building searches it was suggested (on the false ones) that once the building has been serched an officer hides inside with a tug and the dog is sent in to find him with the tug being the reward . . .

LC: This has turned into an interesting discussion of variable rewards but two parts of this drew my interest. One is the basic idea of rewarding the dog for doing a search. The second is about using the tug as a reward.

It seems to me that if the first step of dog training has been done properly, *selection,* then there's no need to reward the dog for doing a search. The search itself is the reward. Being allowed to fulfill the drive is the reward. The dog should have been chosen for his pronounced drive to hunt.

On another note and it probably depends on how your dogs are trained, what is the dog supposed to do when he makes the find? Is he permitted, under any circumstances, to bite? If so, I think that training with a tug as a reward is a mistake, one that could result in some very serious problems. Unless of course your dog isn't permitted to bite under any circumstances.

If he is, the problem is that he's going into the building looking for his toy, not ready to engage in combat. I'd suggest that the dog be conditioned to work to expect combat instead of play.

Our dogs were trained in Bark and Hold..... and in most of the "find" deployments that's what the end result was. So you (Lou)would reward then with a B&H or a bite as a reward? What about during practice tracks then....same opinion? I take it then Lou that you support a reward.... but want the reward to be a realistic scenereo at the end.

Matt in my training philosophy the search is the reward. There's no need for a find a bite, or a bark.

This way of thinking will also get you killed in court, especially if you consider that a bite is a reward.

Here's how the questioning will go. "Officer you love your patrol dog don't you?"

"Yes I do."

"And you like it when he's happy don't you."

"Yes I do."

"And so that's why you rewarded him with a bite on my client, even though he surrendered, isn't it?"

Keep in mind that the defense attorney only has to confuse one juror.

In any case, no matter what your reason for the scenario at the end of the search, the dog needs to be prepared for combat when he's searching. If he's looking for a tug toy to play with, he won't be.

Copy that! Thanks!

Reading the discussion is particulary interesting and confirms my thoughts that there's no one sure way to train a dog.
From my short legnth of experience from my side of the pond when we search a building, unless it is particulary small our search has to be systematic and is done in phases through the building. Each time a new area is entered to search the dog is set up and a challenge given again.
I,m sure for my Rottie this is a seperate search from the one before and if a body is found further into the building the reward is there.
As with your alarms the majority of breaks are negative the offenders long gone, however i do get my collegues to hide up occasionaly, reward is varied from a bite to chasing the helper out and away.