Jim, I get your point. I will be instructing a 400 hr basic K9 school starting next week. We have two green dogs and handlers. Due to our new policy I am forced to teach the warning with a mute dog. As you know, 400 hrs is sometimes not enough to get the dogs ready for the street. If the two new candidates dont show enough improvement in the building/area searches we will be forced to charge them up until they get a clue. The only drawback is having to teach them to be passive again if/when their intensity gets up to snuff. It will be interesting to see how each one works after having been allowed to aggress on the warning(if they need to) then having them be quiet. Who knows, This old dog might learn a new trick after all and shelve some antiquated training ways.

Howard

What I was replying to was the vocal dog not the "I don't care to search" dog (drive issue). I think there is a BIG difference. A loud noisy dog isn't necessarily more pumped than a quiet quivering dog. I do like a more controlled dog (fully trained), than an out of control dog that looks like it has drive and doesn't.
I do agree that the more controlled dog will use it's nose quicker. But I still will make my starting point my finish line also due to the dog possibly missing the first section.
I've seen dogs not get their rythmn until halfway into the search they are so pumped.

Maybe I'm missing something here. The reason behind giving an announcement, besides the requirements of the law, is to allow suspects to surrender before the K-9 is turned loose to find them. It's also to allow people who are on the premises legally, owners, workers, janitors, etc., to make their presence known so that the dog isn't deployed at all.

If the dog is barking then it's all but impossible for anyone to hear the announcement. They'll hear someone yelling and a dog barking but they won't know what's being said. The announcement needs to be clearly heard. It's best if it can be taped so that later, what was said can be played in court, if necessary. Witnesses are an asset too but sometimes they're not available by the time the case gets to court.

If there's a problem in keeping the dog quiet, why not make the announcement with him in the car? Why fight with him and introduce conflict into the situation?

If there's a problem with the dog not being pumped up enough at the start of the search, why not make a second announcement, just for that purpose.

You'll want a few moments of silence after he barks anyway. The crook may not believe that you have a dog until after he barks. If he picks that moment to surrender, you'll want to be able to hear him.

Lou, We're pretty much on the same track. Give two warnings then deploy the dog. I have been working with my partner since the start of this thread nad almost have the problem licked. He is forced to down at the door where he, for some unknown reason, will be quiet almost every time for the warning. Another warning is given with him fired up before he is released. Keeping him quiet after that is pretty much impossible unless I get him into a headlock <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> The question is....What is the liability if after the first warning the bad guy or business owner fails to make their presence known then the dog is released where a physical apprehension is a real possibility? Sorry about the late reply...Been fighting hurricanes all week

I know this is kinda an old thread but I would like to hear an update on anyones progress and present my own experiences. I am not a K9 officer but I train k9 and military type dogs. My work has been in high level executive protection up to paramilitary type private protection. The dog I work with "on the job" is a certified police dog and I would recommend any civilian involved in K9 work go somewhere and put in the time and money to get your dog Certified as a PAtrol Dog....you would be surprised how much your liability is reduced and how much more respect you get have a certified police dog versus just a dog I trained etc etc.
Anyway I have a video of training my dog going into a cafeteria/employee lounge in the dark to do a suspect find. The room is loaded with scent of people, food and has vending machines etc etc and has a slippery floor. Prior to searching the room the dog is lit up standing on his hind legs ready to go. He searches fast and hard but passes the closet the decoy is in several times as it appears he is too fired up and working too fast. Later he is taken outside in the snow and does a long oudoor search with a line on and tracks about a 1/2 mile. He has to search vehicles etc and follow the track. He works much smoother and is right on the whole time. But at the find he does not hit quit as hard. Its like he is in thinking mode versus just reacting...but when indoors and he was jsut reacting he hit hard but was not real efficient. Any ideas? Derek

Derek, We just started the building search phase of our school last week. Unfortunately one of the dogs was washed out a few days ago but the other is doing great. During the warning he is quiet (new at it) and his search is pretty good. Even after aggitation searches he is quiet when the decoy is not seen in subsequent searches. I have noticed he is more methodical when he isnt fired up with a decoy first but his bite is a little weaker. When aggitated he goes balls out and bites hard but the search suffers somewhat, just as Matthew Grubb suggested earlier. We are still in the beginning stages and there is plenty of work to be done so I'm not going either way on this one yet. My partner is now doing a quiet down on the first warning and allowed to fire up on the second warning. I'm only doing this to keep up his intensity. I have tried searches immediately after the quiet down warning and am not impressed with the way the dog performs after finding the helper. Now I just give him a few more moments to work the area at his hyped up pace to make sure he checks everywhere he is supposed to. So far I am happy with how the dog works.

Howard

Thanks Howard-keep up the good work and if you don't mind keep this old thread alive with periodic updates of how this is going for you. I'll try and do the same. I invite anyone else to offer input too. The dog I am referring to myself is 7 years old and a real polished dog..best dog I've ever had by far he's no rookie or trainee for sure. He is way to talented to need more than one pass by a doorway to find a decoy inside-even in a cafeteria. Plus he is too good of a dog to go on a long find and not hit his hardest without verbal encouragement from me. Now from 50ft away once he locks on I can cheer him on and he really pulls back towards the sound of my voice like I want him to. I should note also I started using him for wilderness SAR so not everyone he finds is a badguy. He is a real versatile dog and excels at everything. Maybe its a trainer(me) problem. I'm trying to ask him to track a badguy in full control and find him on first pass and hit like a truck. Then I'm asking him to find a 5 year old kid and lick his face? Should I lower my expectations? I also hate to lower my goals with real special dogs because I don't want to be the one to set limits on what they can learn. Derek

Not sure if it really pertains, and I hate to hit on old posts, but here's my take on it:

1. I've found that it doesn't even matter what I say - I can (and have, in training) yelled complete rubbish, and my partner got pumped up/barking/went into "arse kicking mode". I've found this to be very helpful in day-to-day patrol, as if I have to yell at someone for doing something stupid (i.e. attempting to get out of the vehicle, moving hands, etc), the dog goes immediately on the alert without me having to tell him anything.

2. As for folks inside the building "hearing" the warning, what I did was rather simple. I'd prop the door to the building open (with a rock, stick, whatever), hold my dog in my off hand and away from the door, then yell my warning into the building (without compromising my safety or cover). My decoys have stated that they could hear me clearly, even over the barking dog.

Also, I believe that one should be able to yell clearly over their dog. At least I can - but then again, I've been told I have a big mouth! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Howard ,

Since this thread is going again , I was wondering how it worked out training that K9 Class to be quiet during announcements .

Hi Jim,

Well...I now give a K9 warning very much like Phil does. I crack the door, and from a safe position I give the warning. My dog is in the down position and, through repetition has learned to be quiet on the first warning. He is allowed to go off on the second warning. Basically, I have placated my boss AND got what I wanted. Right now everyone is happy.

One of the two new dogs will stay quiet during the warning
even if his tail was on fire. Strange though, as his alert on find is good.

The other dog, was this handlers' second because I washed out the first half way through the school. This dog had a Sch I and a BH so we had some hurdles. Using the same technique as with my dog, he is now quiet on first warning, and vocal on the second. We did our annual certification last week and needless to say, the boss was happy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Howard