Liz:

Unfortunately not everyone has the good fortune to have an expert breeder like Ed hand pick a puppy to fit the needs and experience level of its owner. So let’s not be too hasty to remark negatively on the quality of responses on this board. I assure you that I can sell you a dog that will make you life a living nightmare. So the next time you have a free moment take the time out to write Ed a quick thank you for sheltering you from the problems that you read on this board. By the way my pup on its way has Holly’s blood in it as well!

I grew up with a St. Bernard and a Terrier mix. These dogs were wonderful family dogs. We had 3 very active children in our family, and the dogs were great playmates for us.

The only reason I ever counsel caution is that I do see so many well-meaning people who get puppies or adopt older dogs, only to find that they really don't have the time and energy to add that much responsibility to their lives, especially in the case of people with very young children, and they end up not being able to handle an energetic puppy who chews anything it can get its teeth on, jumps on the kids, and poops in the house. They end up keeping the puppy out in the back yard all the time because they just can't handle it.

I'm not saying your friends will do this, but it is a realistic concern, and it is a question that they need to look at seriously, and if there is any doubt, then waiting would be wise.

Vince:

I'm beginning to feel I know you, having read Leerburg postings until the wee hours, night after night, during my weeklong bout of insomnia.

Lest I be misunderstood, I did not intend to imply that the quality of postings or opinions are poor; I did not speak euphemistically when I said I was surprised- I really am surprised!

I'm new, and hold stereotypes. I think of American lines as chaotic, unreliable and inappropriate for families under most circumstances. I also think of German lines as... Blitzen. So, please understand that I am sincere when I say that it was a surprise for me to learn about the significant struggles experienced folks have with their German bloodline GSDs.

And believe me, I am eternally grateful to Ed! (As far as a "quick" note... don't count on it! Likely, poor Ed cringed at your suggestion that I write to him... again.)

Oh- while reading the discussion of the crazy, unmanageable dog, I noted that my family (including the three-year-old, affectionately known as "Jurassic Baby")spontaneously utilize the training methods described by Ellen, unwittingly. (Frankly, I find it consistent with decent parenting.) Do you think that some of the behavior issues found in harder dogs might be avoided if the dogs were raised within a "litter" of children? Or, am I simply damned lucky to have Ed to manage the match-making???

Liz

After rereading my post I was a little too sensitive and I apologize for the “tone” of my voice. I feel for some of our members who try very hard to do the right thing but sometimes come up short. We are all lucky to have some really sharp members here that only motivation is to help fellow dog owners/trainers. I applaud your skills at running a family and raising a dog at the same time. God luck and feel free to email me anytime! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hello everyone. I beleive that this would not be the best situation for most people, but if these people beleive they have the time and energy for another "kid" then maybe it would be right for them. Just my 2 cents. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have to say, that I have a day-care in my home and I have 2 dogs. One is a pet, the other is a service dog in training. I have 3 small children ages 1,2 and 3 during the day and my sons before and after school, who are 10 (cognitively 2-3 delayed) and 12.
My hands are quite full between watching the children and training the service dog. My pet is already trained by me (thank goodness)
I don't think that this is an ideal situation and especially for a high prey drive dog. The kids are prime targets for rough play and dominant posturing.
If the mom has to resort to the wooden spoon for the kids, then how will she treat the dog? She needs to understand that calm consistant training is how to attain the dominant spot. Using the spoon is exhibiting anger, which the dog will see as confusing and weak. I'm not saying that she will abuse the dog, but she has to be "alpha" and the kids have to be above the dog as well. I don't know any kids under 5 that can earn that status. She will have to be in control all the time. I know that a dog with nerves of steele is a better match, but it is still a dog, and can not be left alone with a child. Can she train the children to treat the dog gently as well?
What happens when she has to change a diaper, or bath a child in the other room?
I don't think they are thinking logically about this. If they do decide. A puppy is better so that imprinting can take place, but then she has much more training work.
JMHO Phyllis

Phyllis,


Good Post. As I said earlier, its not always a dog problem, it can be a kid problem. What I mean by that is that you have to have eyes behind your head to make sure that the KIDS aren't mistreating the dog(most times unintentionally.) You turn your back for a second or two then the next thing you know a child is crying because they got bit. Now the child can be injured and the dog is put to sleep. What you didn't know is that the child may have hurt the dog by grabbing hold of the dogs ears or something. Dogs that are good with kids can have legendary patience levels, but things do happen. The bottom line is that unless you have a few kids and a couple dogs, its hard to relate to just how much work it is to keep both children and dogs safe from each other. Yes it can be done, but its not always a walk in the park.

I agree that a poor combination of family and dog can be catastrophic. But I feel compelled to defend the potential for a truly wonderful relationship, given the right circumstances.

I understand that I was extremely fortunate to have Ed hand-pick a GSD for me. This dog has drive, and clearly establishes dominance with other animals; still, he has never attempted any dominance behavior with my family. Do most of you, in your experience, really find this so rare?

(Oh... as far as establishing rank, "Jurassic Baby" is a natural... he actually drags a stool to the door- Blitzen loves to be outside- and sits cooly atop his perch while Blitzen waits, attentively, for him to decide to open the door. If Blitzen fails to remaining sitting until J.B. says he can go, he closes the door.)Blitzen adores this kid and snuggles up to him when he naps, and stands guard when he's in the sandbox.

I sincerely recognize that GSDs are not appropriate for all families... but my family would be very different without Blitzen. I know this isn't an everyday occurence, but Blizen saved my child's life when a wolf-hybrid came into our yard and went after him. Blitzen overtook him and kept him at bay, flipping him repeatedly, while all my children got to safety. Blitzen was just a juvenille, but he managed to hold a much larger, aggressive male under control. So you see... I'm a real big fan of a well-bred GSD...

Here's the bigger question... I thought that the point of a working dog is that it is powerful and protective, yet utterly handler-submissive. Aren't GSDs specifically bred against alpha behavior within the family? I thought that the American lines were crazy, nervous-alpha-wrecks, that the Germans are composed, confident, and handler-reliable? Am I just goofy-optimistic and simple???

Liz

No, I wouldn't call you goofy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I'd say that you are generalising from your personal positive experience (if I could make it work, anyone can). Sadly, you have only to go by any animal shelter to find terrible numbers of pets whose people couldn't make it work (or wouldn't).

The skepticism you see here isn't saying that working dogs don't belong in multi-child households. It is saying that unless the people truly know what they are getting into and are prepared to deal with the extra work it brings, it'll be more of a liability It is true that if they do know, do work hard and do find the right dog (no, not all working line GSDs are suitable), then they could (could being the operative term, there are no guarantees) be as happy as you are with your dog.

Liz, how does your dog handle it if your kids begin either to play wrestle or really try and punch the snot out of each other? I dont knoe about your kids but we used to try and half kill one another as kids. Sling shot fights with unripe grapse as ammo.... bricks thrown at each others cubby houses... a couple of molotovs thrown around the back yard for experimentation...
I took my rott bitch to Judo a few weeks back. I didnt want to leave her in the car as she would probably chew the steering wheel in half for the fun of it or dig a hole in the back seat. Anyway, she became really wound up when people started wrestling on the mat, so much so that I had to leave early. I'd be interested to hear of anyone else experiences of working breeds responses to kids rough housing.