Michael,

Just exactly the cause of the situation. If you believe they HAVE to occur together you will accept the rankness to get the desired dominance. It doesn't have to be that way, but because they occur together frequently people assume they have to occur together. Certain chacteristics have been different in some breeds, this was one that is now showing up more in other breeds. As I said before, the chacteristic was present in some breeds and not in others, no matter who the handler was. It is why some breeds have some of the reputations they have.

I know the handlers, in many cases it ws me, I know how the dogs were raised. When the same handler has different issues with different dogs you will see the difference in the chacter of the dog. Some breed specific (for a time) and some dog specific.

This is just going to be another area we disagree on.

Richard, My dog does not seem to have any dominance in him, nor rank and he can take a hard correction and not go into avoidance. So I think he's a pretty steady dog for me. However, some times when I give him a verbal correction he'll sort of snap at me. He's not trying to bite me, it's more like he's "sassing" back to me. When he does that I verbally correct him again. Actually I think it's sort of funny. Anyway, is this something I should be concerned with and how would you classify it? Thanks.

I know trainers that hammer the dog for this, and others that ignore it. The thought on this is that if there is no reaction from the handler then why do it. I have a young male now that does the same thing, and I have ignored it for now. It has not gotten any worse, nor any better which I am happy for it. If you fight it, I think if the dog is dominant it will more then likely get worse, and progress into a real problem. Phil Hoelcher, a top dog trainer has a Malinois that does the same thing, and he basically just goes on heeling and ignores it. It is better in this type of situation to ignore unless it gets nasty, then to fight and create a conflict. With the tough dogs, you need to give and take.
Richard, I will accept and breed to a rank dog that has hardness. Most big rank issue's are created and it will be the dominant dog that produces the better working dogs. We must remember that the GSD is meant to be a wroking dog. It should display hardness. The rank and dominant dogs, will produce in most cases the type of dog you desire. I do feel though that the GSD has lost to much of the overall character of the working dog. This would include domiance and hardness; a requirement for a patrol dog. The show people do not really want to handle a dog, they trot it around and wan thte dog to comply with whoever is holding the leash. This is not what the GSD was meant to be.

I found this to be an enlightening debate, the rankness and domoniance issues. And what it takes to make a real hard rank dog. And how it seems that popular demands sometimes can out weigh the, true purpose of a breed. I learned something from the entire post, quite entertaining and don't have much to add but suspective reasoning and questions.

Most popular working breeds weather it is the GSD, Rottie, or Dobie(even the ABD,Labs & Goldens) once they become popular the breed character declines, due to over breeding. Or to breeding to a specific owner that wants a GSD that acts like a Cocker spaniel. Be that as it may.

Some people just want a dog (pet). Others want a certain breed dog (including the pluses and minuses), for specific type work.

It does appear that most professional trainers of working dogs are not finding the quailty of GSD that they once found, but there are still some GSD that can do the job. I'd like to know out of the 60 GSD, 10 made the grade. How many of the 50 would make good personal protection dogs?

The Malinois are kinda new to USA working dogs maybe 8-9 yrs being introduced and becoming popular, their good tough little dogs. I hope they don't fall in line with the Dobbie, GSD and Rottie (please no movies using Malinois it would be the Mals impeding doom. Popularity in the USA is not what you want for a dog breed).

I would like to know, how many Malinois in a field of 60, would past such a test, would it be 20 - 30? I know not every Mal can not do patrol dog.

My point is when high performance is needed you still can look to a certain breeds, and the less specific you get the more useable the dog get. I still see the problem, but don't see a solution because there still more owners that don't want tough dogs. They a tough looking dog that acts like Lassie.

By the way I could see a real problem in handling the GIANT, very powerful and tough (but hard to groom) dog.

I can say that out of the appoximate 60, 12 were good for police or high level sport, if my numbers are correct. Out of the 48 remaining, I would say that for the average person, about 15 or so more could do PP. This is to say to scare off the common thief, or mugger. The rest were just really either soft, or scared critters. SO you are looking at about 27 dogs that could do some work. That is less then 1/2 of the dogs, which in my view shows that the working GSD is on the decline. To me these are not good numbers. We need to take the more dominant and yes rank dogs, and breed them. This will more then likley bring us good working dogs. It is my view that even today as popular as schutzhund has become compared to the early 80's, there are not more rank dogs in the GSD breed or Rotts for that matter.
As far as the Malinois goes, I can say that I have worked a few seasoned ones, and about 8 or 9 young prospets, and all could do the work of a patrol dog. Bear in mind though that these are papered Malinois.

Scott,

For me it would depend on several things. If the dog is young I would be more concerned than if the dog is older. The other thing would be the reason for the action by the dog. I am much more concerned with a snap than a vocalization.

I would probably correct for a snap, particularly with a young dog. If this were to occur after a correction during obedience, I would probably ignore it but change direction and correct for the dog being out of position of the heel.

Another thing that makes a difference to me is the reason that I attribute the action by the dog to. If I think it is a rank behavior I will correct. If I feel it is not a rank behavior I would just let it go. It is hard to explain the difference, it is something you just need to have a feel for. The best way I can explain it is if you feel the dog is serious in giving the warning, correct it.This is something that you need to read the dog for.

Goodogu,

The grooming on the Giant is not all that bad, depending on the coat type. They come in 3 types of coat: The American/soft coat, German/hard coat, and a medium coat that is in between. The German coat is fairly short and wirey. This can be increased in texture by hand stripping rather than clipping the dog. It is fairly easy to care for sine it stays fairly short and doesn't tend to mat. The medium coat will grow longer and will mat a bit more, if you brush and comb the dog out a couple of times a week it isn't that hard to maintain. The soft coat is a bigger problem. It needs to be brushed/combed almost daily, and may still tend to mat up.

In any of the coat type the dog can be clipped fairly short and almost eliminate the problem.

M. Taylor
That is a sad stated of affair, the GSD has gone through several stages from too mean, to the (sigh) scary critters/gentle show dog. How did the other 33 ever get an audition? Was it because they were papered? or titled? Do you think there was a problem with selection committee? But enough with excuses, the GSD is not what it use to be. This has been rumoured for along time, now its a fact, 27 patrol dogs out of 60 is not bad. But 12 police dogs and 15 PPD maybe, is pretty sad, Dobbies are out and Rotties or out. Lets just hope that they don't make a movie about the Malinois. I've only heard good things about this breed (besides that its crazy in a good way/rank or prey crazy still good).

By the way this discussion have cleared up alot on what to look for in a certain breed. Am I right that you argument that rank/dominance should be awarded or promoted yet controlled. And that you look for both in a successful canidate? How good in Ob can a dog like that be, if he is constantly challenging the handler? So in the temperment scale these dogs would be 10s-9s maybe 8s? Mean SOBs, could you really take a 10 or 9 into a school with a group ear/tailing pulling kids?

I guess a 10-9 he gives a message that ain't gonna happen not here, not ever.

Oh yeah its good hear two expert express their views (go at it), its almost enjoyable.

Richard
I am really enjoying this debate, and both of you have polished your issues so all can see your points. I think you are right in that they can exist separately rank and dominance, depending on the breed or up bring (I understand that M.Taylor does not dispute this, but he just feels both makes a better patrol dog). I feel that together you are going to have a mean SOB, that really would take a strong handler to control it. Is this what is needed for a patrol dog 10s in the temperment test? I like a strong tough dog, but a unprofessional 9s-7s are as much as I can take.

In your opinion where would these rank/domaint dogs fit on the temperment scale? Am I right in judging them by this scale? Micheal I'd like your opinion on this topic for comparison. I think I understand but this stuff is tricky. If only they (the dog) could talk .

Goodogu,

I don't do PD work. In my opinion there is a point where you have some trade offs. I don't believe that it takes a rank dog to do real work. Based on that I don't believe there is any advantage in breeding for a rank dog. A hard dog that can and will fight if necessary is required, a dominant dog that won't accept defeat is necessary, but those behaviors don't need to be directed at the handler.

I am also becoming more convinced that the training has become specialized to the point that dogs that could do real work, don't because of the way they are trained. Too much prey work, not enough reall defence/fight work. No surprise training where the dog, or handler, doesn't know what is coming. We have decided to sepeialize the dogs to the point that they can only do one thing. Sport has become an end point for training, or if the dog is intended to do more the higher level training is delayed too long for the dog to be successful.

I think that you may have a bit of misunderstandng about a rank dog and what they are like. In most cases these dogs aren't a constant fight. It becomes a few times of the dog attempting to establish control and then the relationship shakes out. They may try again at another time, but it isn't constant.