Jim writes, “ I do not want to start a war” . Are you kidding????? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Obviously, this is a hot topic item with a lot of excellent answers posted here. Then, some get into the Find & Bark and the Find & Bite. It really doesn’t matter which discipline is trained, the real issue will be control. But the first considerations should be the legal ones; what does the law allow and what are the departmental policies regarding deployment. A suspect surrendering with his hands in the air or prone on the ground is not a bite situation.

Alan, I didn't want to get into continuum of force as it was not really relative to the intitial question. A department that uses dogs should have a policy on releasing one, same as when to use other less-than-lethal weapons. The fact is, a well trained police dog, once sent, should continue the attack until he is commanded to stop. Working the street is not a sport, and just because a subject stops with his hands in the air does not mean the danger has passed. In the same vain, a well trained dog should also be able to be recalled on a still running suspect. I totally agree with you on the issue of control. It most certainly is a control issue.

David Frost

Criminals don’t have a continuum use of force. Train to win. As I said, “what does the law allow and what are the departmental policies regarding deployment”. You are right, working the street is not a sport, the police are out there to win and go home safe in the morning. Any officer that takes safety for granted is in jeopardy.

Originally posted by Jim Maynard:
When a fleeing suspect that that dog has been cued in on decides it's time to call it quits and stands still with hands in the air or prones out on the ground . Is the dog allowed to apprehend ?

Jim hell yes,..as kevin said,..its an obedience excercise and the handler decides on the commitment the recall and or the termination. bark and hold is indeed a seek excercise not one to be used or confused in apprehension. their is case law on this and its missuse in the U.S wholly in favour of the bite rather than bark and hold.

I have to go with David, especially in the State job. My back up can conceivably come from a city or county unit upwards of 60 miles away, that's at least 30 minute no matter what you are driving; that is why we don't play around; it's not a sport or game. The fact of the matter is simple; a suspect discontinuing his evasion of apprehension ( DO NOT READ SURRENDER) only reduces the possibilty of injury; it does not erase it. It's like Gino says....."don't be a bad guy". All agencies fielding dog teams realize that a bite that is condemned in a public forum ( I very specifically avoided the term Bad Bite here because there is a huge difference)is unaviodable, over the course of time, hence the insurance policies. The only safe suspect is one that is in custody and contained; a second thought " oh shit, the dog is going to hurt me when it catches me, I'd better stop running" is NOT a surrender. I believe this is also the point Kevin and DFrost were making. Surrender is the matter of being taken into custody be virtue of use or the threat of the use of effective and efficient force. It only took one time for someone on a stolen 96 softtail heritage with a Glock .40 in his waistband with his hands over his head to convince me of that.

AZTrooper

All I can say is AMEN. Now time for some shopworn cliches' First, remember the first priority of every officer that goes to work is: I come home when the shift is over. One thing I learned early in my career as a law enforcement officer, the decisions I have to make, usually alone, with just fractions of seconds to think about, will be reviewed in a comfortable office with drinks for everyone, for days, by trained attorneys with nothing but time on thier hands. So it goes, and this, the week of memorializing those that have paid the ultimate sacrifice, I say, I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by six.

DFrost

"To Protect And Serve"

To Protect= My Partner,Unenvolved Public, MYSELF.

and= always remember the last word.

Serve= serve the public by whatever means it takes to place in custody the PERPETRATOR, Thus keeping the populace safe from harm.

Remember all who have Died and or INJURED by
the DIRTBAGS that we have had to deal with.

Sorry about the caps but I wanted to SHOUT! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

BOTTOM LINE FINISH THE SHIFT AS YOU STARTED IT!!
GOING THROUGH THE DOOR AT YOUR HOME TO YOUR FAMILY!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I feel sorry for the bleeding hearts, but TUFF
SH-T!!

I reviewed my last post and I can see how that it may seem that I look upon any LEO that is not a State Trooper with a degree of condecendance......please do not walk away with that idea. I had two City cops pull my bacon out of the fire because I did not take the proper precautions just a few weeks ago.....make a long story short, I put myself in a position where I was elbow deep in 97 pounds of weed with three bad guys and a really bad feeling. I work closely with some of the best, whether they wear tan, blue or gray; I don't care. We are all fighting the good fight together. Although this has nothing to do with the original question, I thought it neccesary to aliviate any misinterpretation.

Gordo

 Quote:

Originally posted by az trooper:
I reviewed my last post and I can see how that it may seem that I look upon any LEO that is not a State Trooper with a degree of condecendance......please do not walk away with that idea. I had two City cops pull my bacon out of the fire because I did not take the proper precautions just a few weeks ago.....make a long story short, I put myself in a position where I was elbow deep in 97 pounds of weed with three bad guys and a really bad feeling. I work closely with some of the best, whether they wear tan, blue or gray; I don't care. We are all fighting the good fight together. Although this has nothing to do with the original question, I thought it neccesary to aliviate any misinterpretation.

Gordo

OK, I guess I won't start with the tail light detective jokes then <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Hello Everyone:
I've read and re-read this topic over a period of days and each time I come away feeling a little different about the post and the answers. I guess my primary concern is discussing tactical K-9 deployment (training or policy) issues over a public forum. Afterall, how do we know who is here who shouldn't be here? I wonder if Ed could make a LE only forum - maybe that would be a topic for another time. It makes me wonder why non LE people are so interested in finding out what our use of force policies are. If they are interested, take the test, go through the 1 year hiring process, fill out 50 page background packages and go through an academy, then make sure you dot every I and cross every T for your 18 month probationary period. We have enough people who evaluate everything we do, Internal Affairs, Shooting Review Boards, Professions and Standards, etc. We don't need more people who are not in LE that want to review our actions (CLERB). It's different when you are being reviewed by other cops - they know what's its like. If I was off base here, I apologize - just my $.02 worth.

On a more positive note, I think the information that is provided by some of the experts on this string (DFrost & Kevin, etc) is both tactically sound and also offers the insight to what the administration would say when reviewing use of force (K-9) policies. We are very fortunate to have such experience at our disposal (literally fingertips). AZTrooper, I think you are on the mark regarding cover from nearby agencies. I am at home recovering from a very recent "OIS" (officer involved shooting) where I was shot twice. I'm thankful that I am still alive and I didn't care who showed up or what color uniforms they were wearing. I needed help and help got to me. I think people who aren't involved in LE have to remember that the deployment of lethal or less than lethal devices (K9's, beanbags, pepperball guns, etc) ultimately rest with the individual officer or Deputy who is going to deploy any of those devices. Strict guidelines such as age, maturity, experience and a tough selection process would help weed out inappropriate or immature handlers (and officers alike). Also, if you're a bad guy, who just bailed out of a stolen vehicle at 0200 after a pursuit and you are still running and jumping fences and you hear the deployment announcement of the K9 and then you turn around and "NOW" you want to give up, you better make sure you still don't have that $100 cell phone in your hand. A cell phone or pager in your hand at 0200 when you are 25 or 30 feet in front of an officer might not look like a cell phone to the officer or deputy when you feel like turning around. Just remember, the handler can always call off the dog, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but they can't call back the bullets. You are lucky if all you get is bite by the K9 and not shot.
Regards,
-------
Brandon
PS (wear your vest & stay safe)