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Re: 70-80 Lb. GSD's? I dunno
[Re: John Stowe ]
#39867 - 05/14/2003 10:13 AM |
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Maggie wrote
But then the video may not have been filmed if the 'well conditioned ex-Marine' was being chased by a Rottie or American Bulldog, they would have been left behind panting in the dust.
I know you were just be snide or making conversation, but there are some other breeds out there that are note worthy. I've offend them, with lesser comments.
But the Rottie or the Pit bull can run down a man like any other dog, unless you have a very long head start, two legs will never be faster then four. If any of these dogs can see you they can catch you. The Rottie has a reputation of giving up or getting tired, but the pit is relentless.
I see the Rottie, Am Bull dog, GS as heavyweight fighters if you they have to fight the whole 12 rounds they will tire out. But all during one blow/contact can be a quick knock out.
The GSD/APT/Dobies/Mals as middleweight can fight all night with ample power and speed for a knockout.
I agree that the bigger stronger dog would be harder to throw over a fence, in a lot of case less hair and tighter/looser skin to get a grip on and just brute strength. But the GSD/Mal still makes a better overall patrol dog.
Sometimes you need a heavyweight but not most of the time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
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Re: 70-80 Lb. GSD's? I dunno
[Re: John Stowe ]
#39868 - 05/14/2003 11:03 AM |
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Originally posted by Maggie Baldino:
But then the video may not have been filmed if the 'well conditioned ex-Marine' was being chased by a Rottie or American Bulldog, they would have been left behind panting in the dust.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Like I said before, I own 2 dogs, an APBT, and an American Bulldog.
It is important to point out there are two very different strings of American Bulldogs, Johnson: (big, heavy, 120lbs+) and Performance (leggy, chiseled looking, smaller, 70-90lbs.)
My American Bulldog is a 13 month old male, he can chase down my pit bull who can jump 6 feet into the air and hang from tree branches, he also "runs/climbs" up the sides of trees and I've seen him get 9 feet up the side of a tree.
Yet my AM-Bull can catch him with no problem.
I take him into the woods, hiking up in the mountains, and he can last for about 5-6 hours.
I don't know anyone who has a dog, he can't catch.
It's also noteworthy to point out that performance American Bulldog, has been, and is still used to chase down 400lb hogs, and hold them by the ear, until the handler can find the dog. Now if that's not pure grit I dont know what is...
So to your previous comment, if a comparable dog was used by the police to take down an assailiant, the only one left panting in the dust would be the assailaint, after struggling.
"It had been said these dogs have the head of an alligator, with the body of a python" -Unknown
-John Stowe
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Re: 70-80 Lb. GSD's? I dunno
[Re: John Stowe ]
#39869 - 05/14/2003 05:58 PM |
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I saw the episode. Size of the dog was irrelavant because the guy was all coked out. He did have nasty bite wounds, but didn't feel them (till later). People always think bigger is better. If you've ever taken a bite from a hard bitting malinois you would be suprised how incredibly hard they bite (and thats with a suit on.)When a dog is bitting you, looks and size are irrelevant. It's like a 280 pound guy or Bruce Lee picking a fight with you. The big guy may look tougher but once the action starts skill and temperment are all that matters. In terms of trying to catch a dog in mid air, good luck, and what are you going to do with him if theres no fence around ? He'll just keep coming.
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Re: 70-80 Lb. GSD's? I dunno
[Re: John Stowe ]
#39870 - 05/14/2003 06:32 PM |
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The entire size issue when it comes to a bite is pretty stupid IMO. If the person is not pain compliant, it doesn't matter how big the dog is or is not. So many factors can effect this to make a valued statement from watching the show 'COPS" is pretty silly as well.
My points being... If the guy is NOT being effected by your dog apprehending them, it's probably a good idea to get your dog the f#@! out of dodge and away from the suspect. If the level of force is not working with the dog, you need to go beyond that level of force. Get the dog out and under control and then deal with the suspect. If not you will only cause unnecessary damage to the suspect, injuries to your dog and possibly other officers who may close in when they see the dog being ineffective.
Point two...and this one comes up with people all the time...doesn't the size make a difference in causing the pain of the bite...IMO, it's normally asked by people who fall into several categories.
a) Bigger is always better, cars, trucks, guns, dogs makes not a difference to them.
b) Have never seen what a real trained bite does to someone who is not wearing equipment and is pain compliant.
c) Is under the myth that their "breed" is bigger, tougher and a whole lot more powerful than "your breed."
My normal answer...I have two friends and it's their choice. One has a really nasty hamster. The other has a mean as hell Min-Pin. If they can hold out their hand let either one of these nasty lil sh%ts bite them, and not flinch or tell me it "doesn't hurt" we'll talk about the difference in a 100 pound vs a 70 pound dog....point being... it all hurts WAY more than any NORMAL person ever wants to feel. If you still don't believe it, I'm sure some folks here would be more than happy for you to come out, with NO equipment and take some bites from their dogs...big small or in-between.
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Re: 70-80 Lb. GSD's? I dunno
[Re: John Stowe ]
#39871 - 05/14/2003 06:46 PM |
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Originally posted by John Stowe:
my pit bull who can jump 6 feet into the air and hang from tree branches, he also "runs/climbs" up the sides of trees and I've seen him get 9 feet up the side of a tree.
Reply: John, no offense, but I doubt this statement will impress too many folks on this board. Pits hanging from trees in the circle of people I train and work with is not viewed as a positive thing. It's not anti- Pit ( I did own one years ago) it's just...ghetto
Originally posted by John Stowe:I don't know anyone who has a dog, he can't catch.
Reply: Another statement you should really look at carefully as it's pretty easy to twist that one into a "game" issue.
Originally posted by John Stowe:It's also noteworthy to point out that performance American Bulldog, has been, and is still used to chase down 400lb hogs, and hold them by the ear, until the handler can find the dog. Now if that's not pure grit I don’t know what is...
Reply: Many breeds have a history of being a catch dog. It has little or no validity when it comes to PSDs. Catching a pig (although not an easy task I'm sure) is not a multi-tasking or as overall demanding of a PSD. If that was all it took, sooooo many dogs would be PSDs, yet VERY few make it or should be.
Originally posted by John Stowe:So to your previous comment, if a comparable dog was used by the police to take down an assailiant, the only one left panting in the dust would be the assailaint, after struggling.
Reply: Again a VERY narrow view of a PSD. Perhaps this is why you feel this way. Biting and "taking down" a suspect is the smallest part of what PSDs do. It is the lowest fraction or the overall picture of a good PSD. Do they have to bite, yes. It is not however the number one, two or even 3 function of a PSD.
Originally posted by John Stowe:"It had been said these dogs have the head of an alligator, with the body of a python" -Unknown
Reply IMO another macho ghetto statement to make the wrong type of people feel cool about owning a certain type of breed. It goes to the lowest common denominator of dogs. It's the reason why some many people think any dog who's been trained to bite, even in sport is a bad thing. it's not helpful to anyone. |
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Re: 70-80 Lb. GSD's? I dunno
[Re: John Stowe ]
#39872 - 05/14/2003 08:34 PM |
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Josh strikes again. . .nice posts.
John, your comments about the ABD being athletic, fast, and able to hold a 400lbd hog, all while being "performance line" (i.e. 70-90lbs) seems to make your argument about a bigger GSD a little weak brudda.
If that dog can do his work at a good working weight of 70-90lbs on a 400lbs hog, then an 85lbs GSD is still too small?
You mentioning the performance of that ABD shows very simply why the ideal working weight for most working dogs is in the 70-90lbs range. . . .performance.
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Re: 70-80 Lb. GSD's? I dunno
[Re: John Stowe ]
#39873 - 05/14/2003 10:18 PM |
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John,
My attempt at humor was not meant to offend some people's favorite breed of dog. (I am always considered too serious by those around me.) But one incident on a T.V. program does not justify the need for a larger dog.
There are too many incidents involving PSD's and their untimely deaths in the line of duty, a sacrifice made for the safety of the police officers. Size would not have mattered in any of those incidents.
BTW, there is a larger Shepherd, a Shiloh shepherd. From what I've heard, they're a health nightmare.
Unfortunately the media is always too quick to capitalize on any shortcomings to occur in law enforcement.
BTW John, are you a paralegal for a defense attorney?
There goes my attempt at humor again... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Maggie |
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Re: 70-80 Lb. GSD's? I dunno
[Re: John Stowe ]
#39874 - 05/15/2003 12:40 AM |
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Defense attorney! Now you're just being nasty... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
My posts reflect my own opinions, and not those of the Marine Corps or the United States. |
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Re: 70-80 Lb. GSD's? I dunno
[Re: John Stowe ]
#39875 - 05/15/2003 01:16 PM |
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Explain how a pit hanging from a tree is any different than one pulling on a spring pole. He is a pet not a PSD, nor was I saying he would make a good PSD.
Define "ghetto". Do you mean something that is not seen as "acceptable" in your "circle of people you train with," and if so, why?
I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by "game" issue. By catch I didn't mean, catching another dog, with dog on dog agression as the final result. My American Bulldog is not dog aggressive at 14 months, and I socialize him with other dogs (friend's/family), and I once again made that statement to show that he not some lethargic, overly built, molloser who runs out of gas after a 60 foot sprint.
As far as your catch dog v. psd argument. I agree with you, I wasn't trying to argue that they make great PSD's, how would I have any idea. I was just trying to back up my statement about them not being left panting in the dust.
How can I dog that can chase a 400lb wild hog for miles through the woods, and then catch it and hold until help arrives, sometimes not for 20-30 minutes, POSSIBLY, run out of gas chasing any man on this planet?
As far as my macho ghetto statement, I was quoting Dave Putnam, author of "The Working American Bulldog", and probably the biggest Ambassador for the breed. He is involved in two many aspects of American Bulldogs to list.
And that quote is on many American Bulldog PP sites. They fact of the matter is the biggest matter an American Bulldog could never be a PSD, is that the public doesn't want to see the police come up with a dog that resembles something they saw on the 6 o'clock news.
BTW, when you have to twist words around, change the subject, and just generally try to insult someone by calling them ghetto because they do things differently than you, it's usually because you have little to no argument, it's like a child throwing a temper tantrum when they don't get their way.
- John Stowe
"Condemnation withouth investigation is the purest sign of ignorance."
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Re: 70-80 Lb. GSD's? I dunno
[Re: John Stowe ]
#39876 - 05/15/2003 01:19 PM |
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