I am still knew to all of this.....learning where I can, etc. After reviewing Uncle Lou's stake out test....I have tried something very similar for my dog, althoug a briefer version. What I see is this test is valuable because you can truly see how the dog will react. If the dog is apt to flee.....it can be seen without losing the dog a couple miles down the road. Yes, it puts the dogs in a situation where they may feel they do not have the option to flee, yet there is still ample opportunity for the dog to show their desire to flee or avoid the confrontation or to show their desire to engage the helper.

I feel it is a fair assessment of a potential PSD simply because certain influences on the dog's behavior are removed allowing the dog to react naturally. It also protects the helper (except when the line breaks) and keeps the dog from running off.

I could be way off on this, but I see it as a valuable test, much like a hidden sleeve test. If the dog is not aware it is a test, or a training session, and various influences have been removed, all the dog can do is react....and how they react is the key......will the dog show a natural inate desire to agress and confront....or when the support (equipment, handler, familiar helper, familiar area, etc) is removed will the dog show a desire to remove itself from the situation.....it is an either or scenario........

I am sure there are other ways of acheiving this end result, but a wise man once said......when you find something that is successful....do everything in your power to duplicate it if you desire the same result.

muzzle work away from the handler is more of a test that any stakeout . staking out a dog is okay on a new dog , but a test for street ready work needs more of a test . with a muzzle the dog has two choices : flight or fight .this choice is made with the dog at a disadvantage , unable to bite . no support from the handler , only training to keep the dog in the fight . I use this test only when I feel the dog is ready for work. I find lou on the funny side anyway as I do some of his posts on other sites . better living with electricity is not my idea of dog training

It seems throughout this post that it was never really clarified that Lou's test is to determine if a dog is a PSD candidate, not necessarily street ready.....perhaps I missed that, or I am misinformed..... but it seems to me that the clear cut distinction between the two tests (Lou v. Bill) is one is for a green dog to determine if the dog is a selection candidate, and the other is to determine if a dog is ready for the street.....am I correct?

Perhaps Lou could expand on how he utilizes the muzzle in his testing and/or training....I would be interested to know as perhaps others are as well.

I realize Lou mentioned he has had trouble with the muzzle on his current dog, but what about past dogs, and those he oversees training on....

Bill,
You didn't answer a single question I asked you. This normally means you don't have an answer. Don't understand how to answer, or are not secure in your own ideas. Why not answer the questions instead of making silly remarks about Lou?

the stake out test as spoken of here is for testing and selecting PSDs from a green untrained dog. It is not the only test, but one that many seem to use to get a baseline judgement on going any further.

IMO muzzle work as most do it has little bearing on how a dog works as a PSD. If the dog has not been properly desensitized to the muzzle you might as well have a guy running around with equipment on and popping a whip. Many dogs learn to upload from the muzzle being put on, thus it is in no way a accurate test of the dogs ability.

Bill, please describe how YOU do muzzle work. start to finish. How do you proof the muzzle not being an upload?

As for your silly comment about ecollars....you must be out of touch with some of the most established trainers and PSDs in the country. Many are using ecollars as part of their training, if not a majority of it is now ecollar work. Some depts have made it a MANDITORY requirement for a dog to wear a ecollar when working the road. If you dislike them, again please state WHY....explain your comments and perhaps we won't think you're just a troll who wants to pick a fight on a BB.

This is why I keep coming back to this forum and have encouraged my handlers to keep up with topics relating to police dogs. For me it is imperative to read in detail what others are doing. Reading what others are doing to evaluate police dogs leads me to believe that I need to raise the bar as far as my selection goes. I'm not disappointed in our dogs but in hindsight I should have "put more on them" to get a better idea of their worth. Testing is very much like taking a used car out for a test drive. You have to decide for yourself what you're looking at and what you're willing to live with. Don't trust the raves from the vendor.

I stepped on a dogs foot (by accident)while testing a dog on a sleeve once. This was supposed to be a BAD dog. He came off the bite and dove between the vendors legs. For me the evaluation was over. I tried to bring the dog back up and ran away inspite of the vendor urging me to put more pressure on the dog.

I have purchased dogs from him since but simply tune him out.

Thanks to all of you who are sharing your tests and evaluations.

control work with the muzzle is the foundation.muzzles are great tool to use in public places that are crowded and trips to the vet . muzzle use is part of ring work . it is more than a aggression tool , it is part of daily life for my dog .
as for the e-collar , I have six at last count , to many people use them as a short cut instead of time with leash in hand in close order drill . control work will build the bond which in turn will frim the bite work . also they cost way to much . I try to spend my money on bite gear and work with the dog more .
as for collars during street work, not on your life . any collar makes to good of a hand hold , in a court of law with 12 good people a lawyer could bring up lack of training and the need for the collar . the public thought on e-collars is that they are for out of control dogs and when I hit the bricks my dogs are in no need of any control device but me .

as for collars during street work, not on your life

Well I for one have had a dogs life saved by having it wear an ecollar,the dog was working in a noisy environment and was chasing a suspect who went across a busy road,without the collar it is more than probable that we would have lost the dog and the training has nothing to do with it,if the dog cannot hear the commands it cant respond.
The ecollar has a lot more uses than just for training and this would not be so difficult to prove in court.
Paul

Hmmm....
Well thanks for your opinion there, Bill. As you seem to be holding yourself out as an authority on real life canine street work, would you care to enlighten us on your qualifications? What titles in dog sports have you achieved? Are you a full time K 9 officer?

Also, is english not your native language or are you just attempting to type while wearing a baseball glove or something...