Strong or weak has nothing to do with the drive itself. If a dog is easily stimulated into defense drive - a strong dog will engage, a weak dog will run, but they both are being motivated by apprehension. Dog that lack defense drive, will see the world as a friendly place that doesn't mean they are weak or strong either. At some point all dogs can be stimulated into defense drive. The threshold is much lower for some than others.

Dogs with a low threshold have to be recognized and worked very careful, because there is just a samll difference between a dog being aggressive and a dog wanting to flee.

I'm not sure how to quote someone... but JERRY CUDAY said the French ring dogs were trained almost exclusively in prey. I have not seen french ring, but have seen FR dogs in other sports. Particularly Mals. Are these dogs working in prey? or do the people doing FR and protection sport use both?
ED SAID: that a dog exclusively defense should not be trained in protection. Do you mean that breeds that run mostly defense and fight, like pits, will have stress problems? or do you mean specifically herding dogs like GSDs and Mals?
Thanks
Lisa

Orv
Strong or weak has nothing to do with the drive itself. If a dog is easily stimulated into defense drive - a strong dog will engage, a weak dog will run.

Don's Reply
We are talking about drive and nerves of the dog right, I don't want to have definition be a problem here. I agree a weak nerve dog would run rather then engage. So strong or weak does have something to do with the dog being able to work.
Depending how strong or weak the dogs nerves are determines if he can or should be worked.

I agree a dog could be a strong nerve dog and lack defense drive, but would need plenty of prey and fight drive to do patrol or protection work. I still think at sometime in its bite training, he would have to be worked in defense.

"A dog without defense drive may see the world a nice and friendly place."

But he may not be able to work or defend himself, (since we are talking extreme cases). Generally most protection candidate are aloof to strangers, until ok'd by the handler. Though much defense is not needed for a patrol dog, it protection dog it is a plus, one of the ways to build fight drive.

The statement that all dogs at some point can be worked in defense. But the results would be what, a messed up dog, Methods like i.e. (table agitation) will just mess a dog up, having a dog biting and pissing all over itself.

Lisa
I remember Jerry saying that, most French Ring dogs are trained entirely through their prey drive, and that the handlers antics makes it look like defense or combat drive. Another handler/helper trade secret.

In regards to the Pit bulls/Matsiffs, I think its unnatural for them to be aggressive with a decoy, until they are taught. This is because of the way they were breed. These type dogs are more likely to be animal aggressive which is different then fight drive define in protection or patrol work, term used in that field is "game".

The herders that seem to know how the protection game is played, these dogs have a lots of prey drive and histroy doing it. Because of their breeding.

Lisa, the reason why the dogs are trained in prey in Ringsport is due to the special relationship the dog develops with the training decoy.

The dog in fact likes and respects the decoy. They become a co-operative team. It is the same for all the sports. Specific to the lower and mid levels.

That in turn results in a higher point average in the scorebook.

Fact is a vast majority of the different sport dogs who appear to do well in their selected games would have a hard time cutting it on the street doing real work.

There are dogs who have overly strong defence who take part in Ringsport but these dogs do not in the big picture do so well.

Jerry

Originally posted by Lisa Geller:
Do you mean that breeds that run mostly defense and fight, like pits, will have stress problems? or do you mean specifically herding dogs like GSDs and Mals?
Thanks
Lisa Each dog is an individual regardless of it's breed. Among dogs that goes into defense drive quickly you will have dogs with different degrees of nerves. Dogs with weak nerves will attempt to avoid, dogs with strong nerves will engage the sam level of stimuli. The amount of stress as dog is under on any given stimuli is also an individual situation, fight or flee is just a manner of dealing with the stress.

For a fact prey work is less stressful, and the best way to work a dog. The point is that you must be aware of dogs that go into defense quickly, and the helper should be carefull in the presentation to work the dog in prey. For example to close a distance, too much eyes, too frontal on such a dog will take him out of prey and into defense many times without the helper even realizing this. Because the helper has worked 20 other dogs in the same manner and they all stayed in prey, so in his mind the work he is doing is prey work.

Well it doesn't matter what the helper considers prey, it matters what the dog considers prey. Each dog reacts in his own way to the very same stimuli.

To recap from the begining. Young dogs can go into defense, they can be worked in defense, it is better to work them in prey, it is important to know when a dog has a natural tendency to go into defense, on such a dog the helper must be extra carefull to keep the dog in prey.

I don't think it is a good thing or a bad thing that a dog has more defense drive than prey drive. It is what it is, and the dog should be trained accordingly, but it will be a mistake to think that such a dog can be trained the same as a dog with stronger prey drive. I believe the best way to train such a dog is with prey work.

Originally posted by Don B. Ackerson:

The statement that all dogs at some point can be worked in defense. But the results would be what, a messed up dog, Methods like i.e. (table agitation) will just mess a dog up, having a dog biting and pissing all over itself.
This is the problem too often we (dog people) want to classify the work as defense or prey. No one has mentioned the table before. Dogs can go into defense drive in normal daily life, if you only see Defense Work as table work then you totaly misunderstand my point. The Postman coming to the door can put a dog into defense drive.

For some dogs the table is required to put them into defense, because they have so little amount of defense drive.

The dogs that I have been speaking wouldn't require a table, it is their nature to go into defense drive.

Then with some dogs that are weak and want to flee when the go into defense the table is used to teach them to fight instead of flee. Which I think is BS, because if the dog is not naturaly a dog that will come forward then it is not suited this work. But I make this statement because I know it used for this purpose sometimes.

Table work is a method of working dog in defense, but don't kid yourself to think if it is not table work it is not defense work. It depends on the dog.

From my reply...(we are talking extreme cases).

Table agitation is poor training, and should not be used. Like you said if it has to be used the dog is not a good candiate for the work.

I don't think (TA) is the only way to induce defense in a dog, the methods you described are more natural ways and tells the dogs true character. Sorry if it sound like I implied that.

I agree with you that a defense drive dog should be trained differently then a prey drive dog, so a balance should be strived for. As mentioned before and in Jerry's Reply some prey drive dogs can't do real patrol or protection work.

And that is the point I'm making that a balance should be sort, and that sometimes a dog in prey drive is not seriously defending, its playing a tough game. That can be the foundation of training for a real fight, but its not the fight because there is no stress involved its just fun for the dog. Sorta like punching a heavy bag.
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Each dog is an individual regardless of it's breed. Among dogs that goes into defense drive quickly you will have dogs with different degrees of nerves.

So breeding and genetic means nothing? Most Pit bulls even Rotties it seem to take more to get them to alert on decoy then, the commonly used dogs (GSD, Mals, DS...). Its been theorized that the matiffs don't see humans as prey until taught.

I agree that all dogs are individuals, but their reactions to certain stimili can be generally categorized by their breeded purpose. Like a pointers puppy that points naturally or Pit bull puppies that fight all the damn time.

Its interesting to hear, how different you see things based on your experince. This is the way of man, its good to agree to disagree.

Mr. Story wrote

Each dog is an individual regardless of it's breed. Among dogs that goes into defense drive quickly you will have dogs with different degrees of nerves.

Originally posted by Don B. Ackerson:

So breeding and genetic means nothing? Most Pit bulls even Rotties it seem to take more to get them to alert on decoy then, the commonly used dogs (GSD, Mals, DS...). Its been theorized that the matiffs don't see humans as prey until taught.
Genetics plays a large role in the individual dog. But not all Rottweilers are the same, not all GSDs are the same, not all Mals are the same. So it does not benifit any topic to assume that they are as a group of dog the same. Granted as a group a higher precentage many show a tendency to work in defense or prey, but I don't believe in working any dog based on his breed. I believe it is important to work the dog based on the dog's character, his individual make up.