Will, I find this extremely hard to believe. And for one, I have never known a German to say another countrys dog is better than theirs. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />There isn't a soul in the serious working Dobermann venue in Germany that imports dogs from America to work. Sorry, this isn't the case. Germany has some kickass Dobermanns.

Believe what you chose to, Steve.
Breeders are often blind to the dogs flaws. That occurs no matter what country they reside in.
Trainers and helpers often have a clearer idea of the overall valve of a dog, more so than a breeder. Those that are working the dogs don't seem to think that they're very "kickass". Maybe you're getting the breeders opinions.

And that's pretty much *exactly* what they said to us over a dinner meeting. Their nicknames for dobes are "DD's"....dumb dobermens.And my hearing ain't that bad yet that I misunderstood them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

And no where in my statement did I say that any Germans are importing dobes from the U.S.

And by the way, I have had heard multiple ( over ten ) Germans say that Belgian dogs were better than German dogs dogs during the heyday of the Haus Antverpa dogs.

I have to go with Steve on this one, I am in contact with a lot of European breeders and helpers and I haven't heard one say anything good about the american dobe.

Will,

your lack of knowledge on dobermanns shows through your ignorant comments. And quite frankly if a helper or someone who is apparently well into the sport would call another breed "DD" or whatever then to me that shows that he is completely worthless as a trainer.

Do you really have nothing better to talk about at your dinner other than rotting breeds other than GSD??? Just b/c you haven't seen good dobes doesn't mean they're not out there, and yes they are out there. I was a diehard GSD person until I saw my first kickass dobermann. If you are lucky enough to see one you will know what I mean. Until then, educate yourself a bit, because you obviously just follow what everyone says.

I have TRIED to stay out of this one....but have to say...

The BEST dog I have ever owned (and I mean best in every regard, intelligence, trainability, drive, grips, natural agression, loyalty, etc) was a Dobermann. She was a real dog that I would have trusted with my life, could score big points on the trial field and was a joy to live with.

I have had many dogs before and since (GSDs and Mals) and not one of them can hold a candle to this dog...and she was a female!!

Elka vom Schonenberg SchH3 IPO 3

I won't ramble on anymore but some of the folks who frequent this board knew Elka personally....

I would take her over ANY dog of ANY breed available on the planet, then or now.

Cindy,
You have been one of the fortunate few that has had the privilege to own and handle a great doberman. The face that you were able to do so well with your dog (and yes, I remember you telling us of her )was really a great example of the right dog with the right handler at the right time.

But still...the number of great Dobermans that I've seen in 20 plus years of SchH here in the U.S., and my travels in Europe have been three. Just the fact about how rarely they place highly in SchH trials speaks volumes. In that time I've seen well over a hundred GSDs that I could rate that high.

But what I said above doesn't change what some upper level handler/trainer/helpers hold as their opinion of the breed as it stands in Europe today.

Natalia,
Whatever.... :rolleyes:
I'd be glad to match my knowledge against yours anyday. Although I'll definately concede that you can make a more ignorant comment than I can. I try to post facts to back up even unpopular ideas when I post, I've found that just posting thin-skinned emotional responses ( like you ) doesn't really back up a post.
Alex Beyer is "completely worthless" as a helper? Ummm OK, guess the fact that he's the training helper for one of the largest SchH clubs in Germany means nothing right? And the fact that he has been chosen on a regular basis as a helper at the DM, the top level competition for DVG doesn't means squat, right? :rolleyes:
And what does that Flinks guy know, right?
And you're telling me to educate *myself*? Look in the mirror there.

So Natalia, I can go with your opinion or I can go by what I've seen with my own eyes and the opinions of the helper with the qualifications that I've listed above, and Bernhard Flinks, who qualifications are so good that they don't need to be even listed.
I know which choice that many folks and I that aren't breed blind are going to go with. Sorry if you don't like other people's opinions posted, but thats what happens in forums.
Enjoy life in your little fantasy world!

And Natalia,
As far as your quote of "Do you really have nothing better to talk about at your dinner other than rotting breeds other than GSD???"

For your information, I've titled GSDs, Rott's ( my original SchH breed ) and an Airdale Terrier in both SchH and AKC OB. I could add another seven or eight breeds if we just chose to talk about AKC OB/ tracking only. I'm currently training a Mal for SchH, along with a GSD.
I'm by no means breed blind - I evaluate both the strenghts and weaknesses of dog breeds for competition. So I don't feel any need to attack a particular breed, I'm just posting what I am told and I observe. Sorry if you feel that I "just follow what everyone says" :rolleyes: but I doubt if the people that know me personaly would use that term about me.

Will, I really couldn't care less about what you titled in what venues. I just responded to your comment which seemed ignorant, and unknowledgeable, that's all. No need to get defensive.

And you don't think that making up stupid names for breeds of dogs is immature and unprofessional???? I do.

And as far as Schutzhund goes..... I really don't care for it, not the venue for my dogs

I dont care how many GSD there are compared to dobes, I for one know that there arent many, but they are out there. Like I said, I used to have GSDs, but now have swithed to dobes, and from mypersonal experience a good GSD doesn't even compare to a good dobermann.

What kind of experience have you had TRAINING and working with dobermanns that you are so strongly opinionated about them???

 Quote:

Originally posted by Cindy Easton Rhodes:
I have TRIED to stay out of this one....but have to say...

The BEST dog I have ever owned (and I mean best in every regard, intelligence, trainability, drive, grips, natural agression, loyalty, etc) was a Dobermann. She was a real dog that I would have trusted with my life, could score big points on the trial field and was a joy to live with.

I have had many dogs before and since (GSDs and Mals) and not one of them can hold a candle to this dog...and she was a female!!

Elka vom Schonenberg SchH3 IPO 3

I won't ramble on anymore but some of the folks who frequent this board knew Elka personally....

I would take her over ANY dog of ANY breed available on the planet, then or now.

It's because of this Dobermann I am in Schutzhund today. I know you'll want to personally thank Cindy for having Elka because without her I may not have graced you all in this sport <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Now wouldn't that have been a tragedy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

The Dobermann's I saw out of Cindy's breeding were all something to talk about. Ask her about Cyra sometime... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think the breed is just not as popular at the GSD and the now growing Malinois. There are good ones out there but very limited people who are showing them.

Natalia,
If you call someone ignorant, they'll get defensive. Or are you just playing passive/aggressive and don't understand what you say? :rolleyes:
I posted about my titles and both Alex's and Bernhard's qualification because you called them worthless. Apparently, no matter what a high level trainers ( them, I don't include my self in the category, I'm just an interested student of dog sports) accomplishments are, if they have a negative opionion of your favorite breed, they're in your own words "completely worthless as a trainer." Feel free to post your hard won titles and experiences against those two so we can see the depth of your knowledge and experience. I'm sure you've got just *so* much more experience with dogs them them, right?

Since you say SchH isn't your venue, how exactly do you detemine that dobes are such great working dogs? By taking them for a walk around the block?

And you must have very little personal experience if you think a good GSD can't compare to a good dobe. The evidence in the form of titles from AKC OB, SchH, KNPV, and virtually any dog sport would fly in the face of your statement.

Feel free to post some facts or figures to back up your wild claims. I'll be glad to post my experiences with dobes if you'll post that info. Otherwise, you're just posting an emotional response that you can't back up.

OK well I wasn't going to reply to this one but I'll do it one last time.

You know there is a world outside of Bernhard, Alex and schutzhund. I myself prefer sports like FR or PSA (hardly a walk around the block :rolleyes: ) When I have time I will title in one of those sports, but for now I will stick with PP.

Apparently you have a problem reading posts carefully and you take things out of context. I said that if what you say is true - sitting at dinner making up stupid names for a breed, to me is an indication that you either: a) are completely ignorant b) are very immature and not serious about what you do c) you have no life or d) all of the above. I said that I would not take a trainer that takes part in such childish behaviour seriously. I don't care if you like the dobermann or not, but you are very heavily opinionated about them, and yet all your posts reflect a lack of knowledge. NOT ABOUT TRAINING BUT ABOUT THE BREED.

I am not going to get into a pissing match with you because its not going to go anywhere. You have your opinion, I have mine.